Home » R/E/P » Whatever Works » Mellotrons for the masses
| Re: Mellotrons for the masses [message #301286 is a reply to message #300876 ] |
Sun, 30 December 2007 13:04   |
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Brian Kehew
Messages: 2729
Registered: January 2005
Location: North Hollywood |
Platinum Member |
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I agree - that white color is SO distinctive and also a selling point. That Memotron thing is NOT very good, but it LOOKS right so people paid a lot of money for them. I only hope Nord hasn't softened their own market for a future keyboard (done that way - colors and sounds) with this.
And I do think it's GOOD it doesn't have pianos and B3 and "everything" - we need products that help us focus - not compressors that are also choruses and subwoofers!
Relax and float downstream...
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| Re: Mellotrons for the masses [message #301296 is a reply to message #301262 ] |
Sun, 30 December 2007 13:56 |
 DSills
Messages: 112
Registered: March 2007
Location: Chicago |
Active Member |
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| phantom309 wrote on Sun, 30 December 2007 11:32 |
If I had my wish, Clavia would do this (ready Tomas?): issue another edition of The Wave. Load it to the gills with Mellotron, Chamberlin, Optigan, Orchestron, Chilton, Birotron sounds. Let us help them with constructing the presets to more closely approximate the sound and playing characteristics of a real Mellotron etc.
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That's more of what I had been hoping for when this first came up (back in my "Life of Tron-fusion" thread). I thought the keyboard would be dedicated to these sounds, but it looks like Clavia are just using them only as a part of the sample library for the keyboard. I almost wish for a whole new product, as I don't think a Tron-centric keyboard really needs all the synthesis features that the Wave has.
"If it's where the heart is, how come you're never home?"
http://www.davesills.com
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| Re: Mellotrons for the masses [message #301299 is a reply to message #301279 ] |
Sun, 30 December 2007 14:04 |
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| RSettee wrote on Sun, 30 December 2007 13:33 |
So what happened to this fabled Ardotron?
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I took off the 1" wide, very long tape loop, and "reverted" the playback machine to an 8 track Scully recorder.
As for the "keyboard," it was also "reverted" back to being a Spectrasonics desk...the "keys" themselves once again became faders.
Music was made.
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| Re: Mellotrons for the masses [message #301301 is a reply to message #301296 ] |
Sun, 30 December 2007 14:12 |
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phantom309
Messages: 2414
Registered: April 2006
Location: Calgary, AB. Canada |
Platinum Member |
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| DSills wrote on Sun, 30 December 2007 12:56 |
| phantom309 wrote on Sun, 30 December 2007 11:32 |
If I had my wish, Clavia would do this (ready Tomas?): issue another edition of The Wave. Load it to the gills with Mellotron, Chamberlin, Optigan, Orchestron, Chilton, Birotron sounds. Let us help them with constructing the presets to more closely approximate the sound and playing characteristics of a real Mellotron etc.
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That's more of what I had been hoping for when this first came up (back in my "Life of Tron-fusion" thread). I thought the keyboard would be dedicated to these sounds, but it looks like Clavia are just using them only as a part of the sample library for the keyboard. I almost wish for a whole new product, as I don't think a Tron-centric keyboard really needs all the synthesis features that the Wave has.
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Yeah, but now you're asking them to build a completely new instrument. I don't think that's going to happen. The tape replay keyboard has a market that's worth a subset of the Wave though...it's just a repackage job that would appeal to the fans of the instrument type. More sounds loaded, more well informed in-house programming and a paint job. Easy. If the instrument had aftertouch, you could even modulate the frequency response of the keys the way a well set up Mellotron can.
And you CAN make it a dedicated Tron player, albeit without the presets and re-key stuff I was mentioning earlier. Just load up the sample memory with the library, tweak the patches to taste and go. If the Wave Manager were a little more sophisticated, you could really make some great inroads with this idea. Another possibility would be to get a sample translator (Chickheads etc.), load the Mellotron disk, convert it and load THOSE sounds into the Wave. I'd bet my last dime that a lot of folks do this.
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| Re: Mellotrons for the masses [message #301313 is a reply to message #301311 ] |
Sun, 30 December 2007 14:58 |
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Doug Rogers
Messages: 187
Registered: January 2006
Location: Los Angeles |
Active Member |
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| phantom309 wrote on Sun, 30 December 2007 20:55 |
| Doug Rogers wrote on Sun, 30 December 2007 13:53 |
| phantom309 wrote on Sun, 30 December 2007 20:12 |
Another possibility would be to get a sample translator (Chickheads etc.), load the Mellotron disk, convert it and load THOSE sounds into the Wave. I'd bet my last dime that a lot of folks do this.
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You don't even have to do that, most popular samplers can import Akai discs and save the content in their format.
- Doug
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Most can. So far, I can't figure out how to make THIS sampler do it though. No obvious AKAI import utility...that's why I suggested a translator. Nord Wave Manager only supports .wav
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The biggest problem won't be converting Akai files to .wav (do a simple Google search), it will be converting the programs. I doubt Chicken Systems or cdextract support that format.
Software guys would prefer a Virtual Instrument to buying another keyboard IMO. I know there's the M-Tron, but they didn't have access to the original tapes or name as you have.
- Doug
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| Re: Mellotrons for the masses [message #301322 is a reply to message #301287 ] |
Sun, 30 December 2007 16:24 |
RSettee
Messages: 4957
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winnipeg, MB |
Platinum Member |
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| phantom309 wrote on Sun, 30 December 2007 13:11 |
| Brian Kehew wrote on Sun, 30 December 2007 12:04 |
And I do think it's GOOD it doesn't have pianos and B3 and "everything" - we need products that help us focus - not compressors that are also choruses and subwoofers!
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I completely agree. Too many options EVERYWHERE.
Commit or succumb to ubiquity....art lives in nuance gained from overcoming limitations.
It's a muscle!
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Yeah, there's sometimes too many options. I like variance and options, but sometimes I really love equipment and gear that do one sound, but very well. Tough call, because that also gets insanely expensive....I wanted to buy an AutoHarp the other day, but they're 400 new, and often the older ones need fixing. I had got my glockenspiel for 300 bucks used, but new, it would have been alot more. I've been trying to rent bells/ chimes, but I can't even find a place around here....maybe I should bug a school to borrow me 'em if they have it, same with a vibraphone, which is 1500 bucks and up. Alot of dough for something that's just a "flavour" on a recording.
Ryan Settee,
Instrospection Records
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| Re: Mellotrons for the masses [message #301339 is a reply to message #300876 ] |
Sun, 30 December 2007 17:40 |
maxim
Messages: 5426
Registered: February 2005 |
Platinum Member |
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maybe, it's just me, but i find it hard to get excited about a recreation of a machine that was invented to recreate an orchestra (and not very well at that)
the only sound i've ever found useful or distinctive enough is the melloflute, and even that is so retro, it's almost unusable
if i'm looking for emulations of strings or flutes, there are other exciting options available to the producer...
cheers,
max
sydney, oz
http://www.asylumdreams.com
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| Re: Mellotrons for the masses [message #301343 is a reply to message #301339 ] |
Sun, 30 December 2007 17:46 |
RSettee
Messages: 4957
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winnipeg, MB |
Platinum Member |
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| maxim wrote on Sun, 30 December 2007 17:40 |
maybe, it's just me, but i find it hard to get excited about a recreation of a machine that was invented to recreate an orchestra (and not very well at that)
the only sound i've ever found useful or distinctive enough is the melloflute, and even that is so retro, it's almost unusable
if i'm looking for emulations of strings or flutes, there are other exciting options available to the producer...
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I don't think that it was ever supposed to really be an authentic recreation, I think that it was always supposed to be a facsimile of an orchestra that functioned as a bit of a synth.
But I agree that there's some great orchestral simulations, these days. The Korg Triton LE and the Korg TR have some great sounds. There was an Alesis digital workstation that was great, too....forget what it was, but it had weighted keys and very authentic sounds. Even on there, you've gotta be careful--piano, harpsichord, strings, horn sections, trombones, flutes are often all good, but the bells and glocks and stuff aren't very authentic.
Ryan Settee,
Instrospection Records
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| Re: Mellotrons for the masses [message #301352 is a reply to message #301339 ] |
Sun, 30 December 2007 18:54 |
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phantom309
Messages: 2414
Registered: April 2006
Location: Calgary, AB. Canada |
Platinum Member |
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| maxim wrote on Sun, 30 December 2007 16:40 |
maybe, it's just me, but i find it hard to get excited about a recreation of a machine that was invented to recreate an orchestra (and not very well at that)
the only sound i've ever found useful or distinctive enough is the melloflute, and even that is so retro, it's almost unusable
if i'm looking for emulations of strings or flutes, there are other exciting options available to the producer...
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I promise you that NO ONE uses a Mellotron or Chamberlin today because of it's ability to emulate the real instruments on those tapes. They have their own vocabulary, psycho-acoustic effects (retro or not), unique possiblilities and baggage.
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| Re: Mellotrons for the masses [message #301461 is a reply to message #301343 ] |
Mon, 31 December 2007 10:57 |
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Doug Rogers
Messages: 187
Registered: January 2006
Location: Los Angeles |
Active Member |
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| RSettee wrote on Sun, 30 December 2007 23:46 |
But I agree that there's some great orchestral simulations, these days. The Korg Triton LE and the Korg TR have some great sounds. There was an Alesis digital workstation that was great, too....forget what it was, but it had weighted keys and very authentic sounds. Even on there, you've gotta be careful--piano, harpsichord, strings, horn sections, trombones, flutes are often all good, but the bells and glocks and stuff aren't very authentic.
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Sorry, but there is no keyboard that has the memory onboard to compete with the top orchestral virtual instruments; they simply can't do it.
Check out these demos and see if you can get that out of your Korg or Alesis -
http://www.soundsonline.com/EWQLSO-Platinum-Bundle-pr-EW-155 PROB1.html
To get this level of quality and detail you need a keyboard controller and a powerful computer.
Happy New Year!
- Doug
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| Re: Mellotrons for the masses [message #301509 is a reply to message #301461 ] |
Mon, 31 December 2007 13:36 |
RSettee
Messages: 4957
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winnipeg, MB |
Platinum Member |
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| Doug Rogers wrote on Mon, 31 December 2007 10:57 |
| RSettee wrote on Sun, 30 December 2007 23:46 |
But I agree that there's some great orchestral simulations, these days. The Korg Triton LE and the Korg TR have some great sounds. There was an Alesis digital workstation that was great, too....forget what it was, but it had weighted keys and very authentic sounds. Even on there, you've gotta be careful--piano, harpsichord, strings, horn sections, trombones, flutes are often all good, but the bells and glocks and stuff aren't very authentic.
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Sorry, but there is no keyboard that has the memory onboard to compete with the top orchestral virtual instruments; they simply can't do it.
Check out these demos and see if you can get that out of your Korg or Alesis -
http://www.soundsonline.com/EWQLSO-Platinum-Bundle-pr-EW-155 PROB1.html
To get this level of quality and detail you need a keyboard controller and a powerful computer.
Happy New Year!
- Doug
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Read carefully. I was very careful on how I worded that. I never said that they were 100 percent authentic, but I said the sounds were "often all good". Whether it's 100 percent real or a simulation--it doesn't matter, it's the feeling and the arrangements of octaves/ fifths/ intervals that's more important--which would be keeping in the spirit of the Mellotron, which was always an obvious facsimile of an orchestra--but great in it's own right. Their strings and wind sections are very good--also pending that you customize the reverbs, attack, sustain and timbre of the stuff in the Triton LE or TR. The machines can only do what you customize them to do, and nowadays, that's quite alot.
Ryan Settee,
Instrospection Records
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| Re: Mellotrons for the masses [message #301511 is a reply to message #301509 ] |
Mon, 31 December 2007 13:42 |
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Doug Rogers
Messages: 187
Registered: January 2006
Location: Los Angeles |
Active Member |
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| RSettee wrote on Mon, 31 December 2007 19:36 |
Read carefully. I was very careful on how I worded that. I never said that they were 100 percent authentic, but I said the sounds were "often all good". Whether it's 100 percent real or a simulation--it doesn't matter, it's the feeling and the arrangements of octaves/ fifths/ intervals that's more important--which would be keeping in the spirit of the Mellotron, which was always an obvious facsimile of an orchestra--but great in it's own right. Their strings and wind sections are very good--also pending that you customize the reverbs, attack, sustain and timbre of the stuff in the Triton LE or TR. The machines can only do what you customize them to do, and nowadays, that's quite alot.
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Professional film, tv, and game composers that do it for a living on a daily basis don't use Tritons or Alesis, they use EWQLSO, VSL or Sonovox virtual orchestras almost exclusively to do their work. We ourselves have over 20,000 installed registered users of EWQLSO. The orchestra sounds on a Triton are from a 1994 library, Advanced Orchestra that we distributed, and it is very dated now in terms of sound quality, dynamics and articulations - much like the Mellotron.
Of course, if these are unimportant, and you are looking for a sound with its "own vocabulary, psycho-acoustic effects (retro or not), unique possiblilities and baggage" as David said above, a Triton or Alesis will work.
- DR
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| Re: Mellotrons for the masses [message #301533 is a reply to message #301511 ] |
Mon, 31 December 2007 15:57 |
RSettee
Messages: 4957
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winnipeg, MB |
Platinum Member |
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I should probably check out that program, Doug--sounds like a great idea--sounds like you've done some good research on strings and the recreation of them.
To me, though, it doesn't matter whether things are dated--at one point, the Mellotron was horribly outdated and many sought to rid themselves of the unreliability of it. When it moves people, all else is irrelevant. To me, as long as you have great intentions and good arranging skills, that goes further than all the "right" sounds with the wrong ideas. I'm a firm believer in some "wrong" sounds being right. Even the Mellotron is, as previously noted, a facsimile of an orchestra that is, obviously, still considered "wrong" to many. You still have to have a brain thinking up ideas, that gives someone the idea to transpose that to a keyboard or string ensemble, whatever. Conducting strings is still conducting strings, whether that's real or keyboard induced, whether it's the best samples, or the worst lo-fi samples samples that you could imagine
This is a rough mix, but it combines 7 guitar harmonies with some synth strings, as well as bowed guitar. Whether those orchestral strings sound "real" or not, that's really not the point....bowing guitar isn't a "real" string sound, either. I like the progression and feel. There isn't EBow on this, but same thing....I like EBow for alot of simulated orch stuff, too--winds, flutes, swells.
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/30/443059/The%20Desert% 20Sands.mp3
Ryan Settee,
Instrospection Records
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