Home » R/E/P » R/E/P Saloon » Untitled.
|
| Re: Untitled. [message #328073 is a reply to message #328063 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 00:03   |
 |
 Barry Hufker
Messages: 6394
Registered: October 2004
Location: between heaven and hell |
Platinum Member |
|
|
Wow! There is so much good stuff here. I've just read through this page and there is so much that I don't know where to begin.
Dan, God gave the laws to the Jews. I don't know what else to say. He didn't give them to anyone else and he didn't expect anyone else to obey them (except when visitors came into Israel then the visitors had to obey them). One must remember, the Hebrew (Jews) are *still* God's "chosen people". They have a very special place in his heart and salvation for the world comes from them through Jesus.
I believe, and there seems to be at least some truth to it, Jews are so persecuted because "the world" hates them. I don't mean the people of the world I mean the satanic system established in this world. If the Jews are special to God then Satan must hate them especially and will do all he can to destroy the people and things God loves. So persecution of the Jews has the entire forces of hell behind it.
Jesus is not just for Christians. He is for all who believe in his saving power and grace. There is a story in the New Testament I will paraphrase 'cause I ain't gonna take time to look it up. It goes something like this: The Apostles had been casting out demons (from within people) and healing the sick, all by the power Christ had given them. One day they reported to Christ that there were others whom the Apostles didn't know who were able to do the same thing by using "the name of Jesus Christ". The Apostles wondered what they should do and asked Jesus who said, "He who is not against us is for us". This means all who believe in the power of Christ's name and the offer of his salvation have the same power as those who call themselves Christians.
No matter what the sin, large or small, no matter how many times committed, once or a bazillion, each person who has sinned (which is all of us because none of us is perfect) has fallen short of the Glory of God. As such we need his forgiveness to escape the punishment attached to that sin.
Once salvation is received by the person, no one and nothing can take salvation away or somehow injure it. But if one (saved or unsaved) turns away from the "path of righteousness", that person will receive the punishment associated with that sin. For instance, imagine an alcoholic who is drunk for decades and damages his liver. By some means he finds salvation through Christ. He is freed from his sins forever, but he still is an alcoholic with a bum liver.
Too much other good stuff to remember or comment on.
So Dick Cheney comes up to George Bush and says, "I've just been told we've been given a thousand Brazilians to aid the war in Iraq."
GWB says, "That's exciting! Exactly how much is a thousand Brazilians in American money?"
http://www.hufkerrecording.com
Torture “is basically subject to perception,” CIA counterterrorism lawyer Jonathan Fredman told a group of military and intelligence officials gathered at the U.S.-run detention camp in Cuba on Oct. 2, 2002, according to minutes of the meeting. “If the detainee dies, you’re doing it wrong.”
|
|
|
| Re: Untitled. [message #328078 is a reply to message #328030 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 00:09 |
 |
mgod
Messages: 3116
Registered: January 2007
Location: L.A. |
Platinum Member |
|
|
| J-Texas wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 20:32 |
But Jesus is for the CHRIST-ians and one thing the Christians are called to do is minister to those who don't know Him.
|
And why would Jesus be exclusively for the Christians? And why should the Christian assume anyone else doesn't know him, simply because they don't proclaim themselves as Christian? There may be people all around you who know Jesus intimately who can't be identified as Christian - in fact, there are.
| J-Texas wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 20:32 |
If you just sit and analyze the words and try to find fault... then, well, you won't find what you're looking for and you've really missed the point.
|
And yet so much energy has gone into analyzing the words and using them to find fault in others. But I don't think its for one person to say whether another has missed the point. Dealing with the beam in one's own eye is the instruction I believe.
It seems to me that making the claim of being a true Christian is a very large personal undertaking and has nothing to do with observations of others. As Jessica has so eloquently suggested, silence speaks volumes.
DS
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear-headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about the atoms this much: There is no matter as such! All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together . . . We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter."
- Nobel Prize-winning physicist Max Planck, from a speech he delivered in Florence, Italy in 1944, entitled "Das Wesen der Materie" (The Character of Matter)
"My goal is simple. It is a complete understanding of the universe, why it is as it is and why it exists at all." - Stephen Hawking
|
|
| | |
| Re: Untitled. [message #328128 is a reply to message #328088 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 08:30 |
|
mgod
Messages: 3116
Registered: January 2007
Location: L.A. |
Platinum Member |
|
|
There's plenty of evidence that the NT has been deliberately altered over the years Nick. Read Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" for more on this.
However, those who are already convinced of its inerrancy will discount the messengers and so their message, as I'm sure our friend Nathan is about to tell you. There are other interpretations as well, among them that since the big guy is all powerful, nothing of importance can be changed since he controls all, or that maybe its a change he wanted. What seems inarguable to me, although the minute you say something like that you're asking for trouble, is that the interpretation has changed mightily over the years, and the meaning of the instruction.
There's a lot of debate about the changing of meaning at the Council of Nicea, when some think Rome co-opted the movement. Others see the hand of you know who in it.
DS
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear-headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about the atoms this much: There is no matter as such! All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together . . . We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter."
- Nobel Prize-winning physicist Max Planck, from a speech he delivered in Florence, Italy in 1944, entitled "Das Wesen der Materie" (The Character of Matter)
"My goal is simple. It is a complete understanding of the universe, why it is as it is and why it exists at all." - Stephen Hawking
|
|
| |
| Re: Untitled. [message #328183 is a reply to message #328041 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 10:56 |
PookyNMR
Messages: 1598
Registered: April 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
Platinum Member |
|
|
| John Ivan wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 21:54 |
Well, I guess that I can never have anything to do with a religion that concludes that an entire group of people need to ask for forgiveness for simply being who they are.
|
But it's not who they really are. It's an alternate identity that they've chosen to believe.
That's not a self righteous statement as we all have different areas of our lives where 'the deceiver of the world' has won some battles.
Nathan Rousu
|
|
|
| Re: Untitled. [message #328184 is a reply to message #328067 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 10:57 |
PookyNMR
Messages: 1598
Registered: April 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
Platinum Member |
|
|
| mgod wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 22:53 |
| maxim wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 20:26 |
"if you're looking for a list, then you're missing the point of the New Testament."
i daresay, you're missing the point of the new testament
the point being:
do not judge, lest yourself be judged
|
Thank you Max. Amazing how hard that appears to have been.
|
If that's the conclusion that you've come up with, you need to do more reading...
Nathan Rousu
|
|
|
| Re: Untitled. [message #328187 is a reply to message #328088 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 11:02 |
PookyNMR
Messages: 1598
Registered: April 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
Platinum Member |
|
|
| danickstr wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 23:34 |
I am often bewildered by the level of acceptance that Christians have that the bible is the word of god.
They were not there when it was written, and they have no idea how many times it changed hands before it became the text it is now, and what those people who have nothing to say for themselves may have done to it while it was in their possession.
Information that passes from one side of a classroom to the other is completely transformed in a simple grade school game.
That takes about 5 minutes to become a significantly different message than the one that was originated.
And yet the bible is taken to be worthy of being the transforming text of billions of lives, and it has had thousands of years to fall into so many hands that may have had alterior motives, and yet so many folks do not allow that possibility to enter into their assessment of its message.
interesting stuff.
|
We've been through this in the other thread.
I'd argue that there's few if any other subjects that have received more study than the Bible. There are multiple specialized fields of study that deal with this very issue of historical transmission.
There's a lot of historical resources out there that answer all these questions. Bottom line, through numerous intensive scholarly processes, what we have now is quite accurate to the originals.
Nathan Rousu
|
|
|
| Re: Untitled. [message #328188 is a reply to message #328128 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 11:06 |
PookyNMR
Messages: 1598
Registered: April 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
Platinum Member |
|
|
| mgod wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 07:30 |
There's plenty of evidence that the NT has been deliberately altered over the years Nick. Read Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" for more on this.
|
Oh, goodness, not this again...
Ehrman, Pagels - all of them belong to a particular camp promoting Gnosticism. The mainline academic community charges them with historical revisionism. There are plenty of resources out there to show how these folks have mistreated history to promote their Gnostic agenda.
There's a small camp of folks out there who say that 192k provides better 'resolution' as it has more samples. Maybe we should believe them. 
Nathan Rousu
|
|
|
| Re: Untitled. [message #328194 is a reply to message #328183 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 11:25 |
John Ivan
Messages: 2895
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
|
|
| PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 11:56 |
| John Ivan wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 21:54 |
Well, I guess that I can never have anything to do with a religion that concludes that an entire group of people need to ask for forgiveness for simply being who they are.
|
But it's not who they really are. It's an alternate identity that they've chosen to believe.
That's not a self righteous statement as we all have different areas of our lives where 'the deceiver of the world' has won some battles.
|
Sorry. Not only do I think this is wrong, but I find it to be rather disgusting.. How would you know? What is with all this crap about understanding who other people are? Why don't you ask them? Then when they answer your questions, instead of deciding that YOU know why they are Gay, listen to THEM explain why/how they are Gay.. I get my understanding of the Christian people I know directly from them. No one else. I take them at their word, as confusing as it is sometimes.
Please, what ever you do. Do NOT pretend to understand whether or not some "deceiver" is in my life, or anyone else's life.. You would have no idea. At all. Of any kind. What so ever.Under any circumstances.
Period.
Ivan.................
|
|
| |
| Re: Untitled. [message #328210 is a reply to message #328183 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 11:58 |
weepit
Messages: 36
Registered: July 2007 |
Member |
|
|
| PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 10:56 |
But it's not who they really are. It's an alternate identity that they've chosen to believe.
|
Wow. That is one of the dumbest things I've ever read on the internet and that is saying a great deal.
|
|
|
| Re: Untitled. [message #328213 is a reply to message #328194 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 12:04 |
 |
Jessica A. Engle
Messages: 652
Registered: February 2007
Location: nebulous at best |
Gold Member |
|
|
| John Ivan wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 11:25 |
| PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 11:56 |
| John Ivan wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 21:54 |
Well, I guess that I can never have anything to do with a religion that concludes that an entire group of people need to ask for forgiveness for simply being who they are.
|
But it's not who they really are. It's an alternate identity that they've chosen to believe.
That's not a self righteous statement as we all have different areas of our lives where 'the deceiver of the world' has won some battles.
|
Sorry. Not only do I think this is wrong, but I find it to be rather disgusting.. How would you know? What is with all this crap about understanding who other people are? Why don't you ask them? Then when they answer your questions, instead of deciding that YOU know why they are Gay, listen to THEM explain why/how they are Gay.. I get my understanding of the Christian people I know directly from them. No one else. I take them at their word, as confusing as it is sometimes.
Please, what ever you do. Do NOT pretend to understand whether or not some "deceiver" is in my life, or anyone else's life.. You would have no idea. At all. Of any kind. What so ever.Under any circumstances.
Period.
Ivan.................
|
John is right here, fellas. You don't know what is in another person's heart. God knows what's there, and humans don't have the ability to see or know what God sees in someone else.
You can know someone your whole life, they could be your sibling or your parents or your partner, and you will NEVER know them wholly. This is a limitation of being a human. It is not a limitation for God.
Therefor, trying to discern something which only God is capable of discerning is folly. Only trouble comes from here! Can you imagine the atrocities that would occur if humans were in charge of judging the content of the hearts of our fellow men? (Well, not much imagination required, sadly.)
I know what the Bible says about homosexuality. That's not to say I understand it, but nor do I feel the need to somehow exercise the wrath of God upon the people those passage speak about.
I'll say again that I don't understand! It frustrates me that I see Gods words that and they don't sound like the loving God I know. I can no more understand what it is like to be a homosexual than I can understand what it is like to be black, or to be a man, or to be God.
If I may summarize......
someone suggested to me recently via PM that the problem with Christians is that they try to change people, even if it is clear the people don't want to change. This may be ture, but that's not what Christians are instructed to do. Not at all.
What Christians are instructed to do is spread good news. That is not the same as trying to change people. God changes people (or, if you prefer, people change themselves). Any Christian who sees it as their goal to change people (yah! even gay people!) is either confused about what the Lord wants from them, or never bothered to figure that out in the first place.
The "good news" is that sin (doesn't matter what kind) doesn't have to ruin you and condemn you to death. You can tell someone that, and once they've heard it they are free to take the next step, or not to. We all have choice. If you continue to badger someone after the message has been given, this (as you all know) has a very good chance of driving people away from your message. They might ask questions, and that's a good way to know if your message is wanted, or at least merits discussion (like we have here).
Please don't let our mistakes, our hipocrisy as Christians be confused with Jesus' utter lack of those things. We screw up, a lot. And it is often with the help of "outsiders", that is non-Christians who can be more objective, who can logically and with grace point out our mistakes, that we grow (I hope).
Jessica
PS Nobody owns Jesus. He is for everyone. There's no rules against non-believers reading a Bible and learning about him.
|
|
|
| Re: Untitled. [message #328218 is a reply to message #328194 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 12:20 |
PookyNMR
Messages: 1598
Registered: April 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
Platinum Member |
|
|
| John Ivan wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 10:25 |
| PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 11:56 |
| John Ivan wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 21:54 |
Well, I guess that I can never have anything to do with a religion that concludes that an entire group of people need to ask for forgiveness for simply being who they are.
|
But it's not who they really are. It's an alternate identity that they've chosen to believe.
That's not a self righteous statement as we all have different areas of our lives where 'the deceiver of the world' has won some battles.
|
Sorry. Not only do I think this is wrong, but I find it to be rather disgusting.. How would you know? What is with all this crap about understanding who other people are? Why don't you ask them? Then when they answer your questions, instead of deciding that YOU know why they are Gay, listen to THEM explain why/how they are Gay.. I get my understanding of the Christian people I know directly from them. No one else. I take them at their word, as confusing as it is sometimes.
Please, what ever you do. Do NOT pretend to understand whether or not some "deceiver" is in my life, or anyone else's life.. You would have no idea. At all. Of any kind. What so ever.Under any circumstances.
Period.
Ivan.................
|
How do you know if your house has been built square? Awfully hard to hang a door if the door frame is not sqaure, no? The answer is you use a tool called a 'square' to measure if the angles are in fact 90 degrees.
The same principle applies for whether or not are lives are true or "square" - we use a measuring tool to check. The measuring tool that we have is the revelation of perfect humanity in Jesus Christ and the word that was given to reveal the natural order.
If one is to know if there is deception, it's because the measuring tool says so.
But let's even take this out of the religious realm. Because in many ways it's not a religious issue, but a practical one.
My father has done personal / family counseling for many decades. He has had many, many gay people come to see him for help. In fact, his counseling services were quite popular among the gay community. He has also been connected with a number of other counselors / therapists / doctors who work with homosexual people.
While homosexuality is very complex - there are indeed reasons "why". None of these reasons are positive. The vast majority of homosexuals (with the exception of the 1% of them who are born with physical anomalies) have at the root of their 'acute sexual identity crisis' a bitterness rooted judgement. Because of this, they begin to believe a system of lies about themselves and take on this alternate identity. The lies are not always obvious to them, but may be obvious to observers. I'm talking about things like feelings of worthlessness, deserving of abuse, deserving of rejection, etc. So when I say that this is not who they really are, this is specifically what I am referring to. Because of the judgements, they believe these lies and out of that faith system adopt a new identity and life style. It's not the true selves that they are living out of, it's the self that's been transformed by the lies of worthlessness, rejection, abuse, etc.
Nathan Rousu
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Fri Dec 5 09:55:28 CST 2008
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.12693 seconds |
Members
Search
FAQ
Register
Login
Home
