Home » R/E/P » j. hall » IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
| Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion [message #332444 is a reply to message #331375 ] |
Thu, 10 April 2008 22:06   |
 |
 imdrecordings
Messages: 109
Registered: September 2007
Location: Salt Lake City |
Active Member |
|
|
There is something that's not being discussed at all.
There is a limit that a mix can be pushed before losing the music, band, song or message. In fact it can be worse when someone misses the point entirely and depends on an effect to ground a song. Some of the mixes I listened too, didn't even begin to identify with what the band was delivering and instead decided that they needed to make a statement with an effect or "avenue" that they(the mixer) decided to go down.
You have to respect that in some way, shape or form that the music is the most important part as well as the people who are performing it. How can you as an artist or engineer deliver that message to even more people than they could, with out diluting the content.
I thought this was the perfect exercise to match J's mix, because it was already at it's peak level of existence.
I guess we all missed the boat entirely or just arrived too late to do what really mattered.
Cheers J. Where can I get me a copy of your album?
Scott
WinXP & Vista64 PC:Mobo-ASUS P5W DH Deluxe WiFi, GUI Card w/ OMEGA Driver-Gigabyte GeForce GV-NX736256D-RH,RAM/MEMORY-Corsair DDRII 4gb, HD-System WD Raptor 75gb 10,000rpm SATA/AudioDrive Seagate Barracuda 350gb 7,200rpm SATA/BackupDrive Samsung 750gb 7,200rpm SATA, Audio Card- RME HDSP9652 PCI card
Software: Samplitude V10.1 Pro (SAM Settings *working* - Track FX Monitoring-ASIO Buffer 1024 -VIP Object Buffer 2048 -*Performance* Dual CPU & ASIO performance checked-HD/Scrub Buffer 1000 - Test Buffer 8000-Buffer Number 4 - Tracks Speed & Preload file cache on stop both Activated - Plug-in Buffer set to Best Performance ), Beer of choice: Extra Pale Ale
|
|
| |
| Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion [message #332462 is a reply to message #332439 ] |
Thu, 10 April 2008 22:44 |
|
imdrecordings
Messages: 109
Registered: September 2007
Location: Salt Lake City |
Active Member |
|
|
| bblackwood wrote on Thu, 10 April 2008 21:41 |
[Edit: Never mind, I'm done.]
|
Brad, you had some brilliant points! Why did you go and erase it???
Scott
WinXP & Vista64 PC:Mobo-ASUS P5W DH Deluxe WiFi, GUI Card w/ OMEGA Driver-Gigabyte GeForce GV-NX736256D-RH,RAM/MEMORY-Corsair DDRII 4gb, HD-System WD Raptor 75gb 10,000rpm SATA/AudioDrive Seagate Barracuda 350gb 7,200rpm SATA/BackupDrive Samsung 750gb 7,200rpm SATA, Audio Card- RME HDSP9652 PCI card
Software: Samplitude V10.1 Pro (SAM Settings *working* - Track FX Monitoring-ASIO Buffer 1024 -VIP Object Buffer 2048 -*Performance* Dual CPU & ASIO performance checked-HD/Scrub Buffer 1000 - Test Buffer 8000-Buffer Number 4 - Tracks Speed & Preload file cache on stop both Activated - Plug-in Buffer set to Best Performance ), Beer of choice: Extra Pale Ale
|
|
|
| Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion [message #332463 is a reply to message #332460 ] |
Thu, 10 April 2008 22:47 |
 |
bblackwood
Messages: 5926
Registered: April 2004
Location: The home of Rock-n-Roll..... |
Platinum Member |
|
|
| J-Texas wrote on Thu, 10 April 2008 22:39 |
Dude. Did you have a rough day?
|
Nope, not at all. Feeling good, actually.
| Quote: |
That was a legitimate point and a serious question. I think holding back your qualified input takes away from the learning process.
|
I've held nothing back - how could you even suggest that?
| Quote: |
I'll ask you again.
In your opinion, has the need for everything to be loud and not dynamic, as well as following a mixing trend for commercial viability, skewed what most people consider good?
|
I'll ask you- when did I ever inject the loudness of this mix into this discussion? I didn't you did. I'm not viewing this as a 'commercially viable' mix discussion, as the music isn't 'commercially viable' from the get-go. If you think your mix is awesome, so be it - ignore my perspective. Makes no diff to me - I was simply trying to make a point (which you obviously either wish to argue or ignore).
| Quote: |
I don't understand your frustration.
|
No frustration, just bewilderment that you wouldn't actually listen to your mix and try to be objective about it.
If you think it's great - awesome. More power to you. Either way, I'm done.
If anyone else has questions, feel free to ask.
Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters
"Enjoy sound." - Greg Calbi
|
|
| | | |
| Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion [message #332476 is a reply to message #332465 ] |
Thu, 10 April 2008 23:10 |
|
imdrecordings
Messages: 109
Registered: September 2007
Location: Salt Lake City |
Active Member |
|
|
| bblackwood wrote on Thu, 10 April 2008 22:49 |
| imdrecordings wrote on Thu, 10 April 2008 22:44 |
| bblackwood wrote on Thu, 10 April 2008 21:41 |
[Edit: Never mind, I'm done.]
|
Brad, you had some brilliant points! Why did you go and erase it???
|
I appreciate your kind words, but I'm not going to debate him on this - I don't have the spare time. I shared my opinion and he refuses to even consider it might be worth considering, so I'm done with it.
|
Kind words?
No thanks necessary. You laid it all out.
Your short little snippet you said of what my mix wa, gave me an affirmation that I already knew. Thank you. That's all I needed. Do you do stuff like "help people with their mix" kind of thing?
If so PM me how much.....
Scott
WinXP & Vista64 PC:Mobo-ASUS P5W DH Deluxe WiFi, GUI Card w/ OMEGA Driver-Gigabyte GeForce GV-NX736256D-RH,RAM/MEMORY-Corsair DDRII 4gb, HD-System WD Raptor 75gb 10,000rpm SATA/AudioDrive Seagate Barracuda 350gb 7,200rpm SATA/BackupDrive Samsung 750gb 7,200rpm SATA, Audio Card- RME HDSP9652 PCI card
Software: Samplitude V10.1 Pro (SAM Settings *working* - Track FX Monitoring-ASIO Buffer 1024 -VIP Object Buffer 2048 -*Performance* Dual CPU & ASIO performance checked-HD/Scrub Buffer 1000 - Test Buffer 8000-Buffer Number 4 - Tracks Speed & Preload file cache on stop both Activated - Plug-in Buffer set to Best Performance ), Beer of choice: Extra Pale Ale
|
|
|
| Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion [message #332477 is a reply to message #332473 ] |
Thu, 10 April 2008 23:16 |
|
bblackwood
Messages: 5926
Registered: April 2004
Location: The home of Rock-n-Roll..... |
Platinum Member |
|
|
| grant richard wrote on Thu, 10 April 2008 23:07 |
| bblackwood wrote on Tue, 08 April 2008 12:33 |
grant richards - dark, nice pumping overall, sorta welrdly pushed in the mids
|
thanks for the comments Brad. from a your purest ME perspective, is the pumping done well enough to make the master pretty loud?
pushed in the mids...guitars? vocals? drums? everything? elaboration would be appreciated.
what's your take on the bottom?
|
Hey man, everything seemed a little pushed in the mids. I think overall, a decent master could be cut from this - an excellent master if the band loved the mix.
As for loud - please, PLEASE do nothing in mixing to make things loud - just make it sound good! If you start focusing on loudness without the perspective (not to mention the additional processing which might be involved) of the mastering engineer, you'll likely be missing stuff you need to focus on.
Leave it to us to get it loud (if needed), just make it please the artist!
Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters
"Enjoy sound." - Greg Calbi
|
|
| | | | |
| Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion [message #332579 is a reply to message #332509 ] |
Fri, 11 April 2008 07:20 |
|
bblackwood
Messages: 5926
Registered: April 2004
Location: The home of Rock-n-Roll..... |
Platinum Member |
|
|
| grant richard wrote on Fri, 11 April 2008 00:37 |
the reason i bring it up is this. i've heard of some mastering engineers ***ahem*** commenting on mixes pumping too much, which limits how hard the mix can be "hit" in mastering.
|
Well, it's generally true - the more dynamic the mix is, the louder it can generally be made in mastering (within reason). A heavily compressed mix can be very difficult to get loud at times...
| Quote: |
when we say "loudness", if you're speaking of leaving headroom for the ME, no problem there. i've been leaving about 10 db for the ME to play with. the mp3 i submitted for this most likely was bumped up to level with a cheap mastering plug, just to make it a listen-able volume.
|
What I mean by loudness is this: don't do ANYTHING trying to prepare the track to be loud. Don't compress/limit/anything else in an attempt to 'help' the mastering engineer - just focus on the mix and make it slay. If loudness is something that needs to be achieved to appease the artist, then leave that to the mastering guy.
| Quote: |
my question was more along the lines of how much bus compression i was using, and the resulting pumping action.
|
I just felt that, in your case, the pumping was a bit much. Granted, I cut records all the time with that much compression on the mixes, so this isn't a train-wreck, it's just somewhat common for buss compression issues to become even more apparent post-mastering...
| Quote: |
sorry to mention again, what did you think of the bottom end?
|
It was a bit big, a bit too much. Not bad, just a bit - could probably be fixed in mastering.
Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters
"Enjoy sound." - Greg Calbi
|
|
|
| Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion [message #332621 is a reply to message #331375 ] |
Fri, 11 April 2008 10:15 |
 |
 garret
Messages: 900
Registered: November 2004
Location: Champaign, IL |
Gold Member |
|
|
Here is my feedback, from blind listening.
Important note: I was judging the mixes on their own merits, not by comparison to J's mix.
If I missed anyone, please let me know..
-G
---------------------
antman – toms in the intro are a little brittle... backup vox are a little dominant in the first chorus... bass guitar needs more bottom. Good mix... nicely balanced, lots of energy..
rkoehler – a dark and murky place. Take another swing at that snare... it's very thin and papery right now. Brightening that up could add a lot of missing presence. Some good treatments here, but all together it's adding up to something very murky... track levels are nicely balanced against each other.. but there's something off in the overall spectral balance... too much eq maybe? I think the original tracks were considerably brighter.
j.hall – vocal are a little overprocessed... kick is too loud. Lots of energy in this mix though.. gets my pulse rate up and my head banging. Good balanced dynamics and sonics... Hey, that's the J delay on TAKE TAKE TAKE... so this is the J Hall mix...
adam miller – bass guitar needs a little bit of low end. Great mix though... everything sounds good and is nicely balanced... tons of energy, and one of the best payoffs at the 2:00 mark...
e_houston – strange bass sound... not sure what the story is, but it's very metallic. I like the toms though... backup vox are mixed too high in the first chorus... great snare (I love reverby snares). Solid mix except for the bass tone. Did you add some chorus or something to the bass? It's really warbly...
boedo – some odd treatments in this one... the lead vox very sibilant.. the kick is dominant, and it's not a great tone... flap flap flap. Not much energy in this mix. Spectral balance is pushing up from 1khz – 5khz. Are your monitors dark in that range?
ATOR – vocal is lispy. Bass guitar is very strange... kick is dominant. Wow, it get phasey at 0:30 ... it's making my ears twitch.. do less processing, more balancing.
Uncleozzy – I'd like to hear some fundamental on the bass guitar... kick sounds delicious, but it's mixed too loud. I love the backwards stuff to fill the cut at 1:00.
cymatics – the vocals are lacking definition... very lispy, and buried in the mix... wow, there's a ton of sub bass rumble in this. Where'd it come from? Sounds like a truck outside my window. Lots of good energy and vibe in this mix... you just need to get the vocals right.
firefly – phasey vocals... ugh my ears are twitching... is there reverb on the bass? It sounds a mile away. Lots to address in this, but the phase stuff is making it hard to focus to give you feedback. There's a huge presence peak from 1-5khz... what are you monitoring on?
j.texas – murky... vocals are buried too far back. The bass is well supported.. nice bottom with the metallic stuff on top... but it's dominating the mix. Lots of balancing problems in this... bass is too high, vocals are too quiet.. guitars are at times either too loud or too quiet...
podgorny – Good sonics in this one... Balances are good too, except the vocals are a little buried. Great guitars... lots of energy... I just want to hear the vocals take more control, especially around 1:30.
greg_thompson – Some balancing issues here... drums and bass are a little high compares to the vocals and guitars... kick is particularly relentless. Good energy though... the 1:30 section could be one of the best if the kick were dropped down a few db...
grant richard – low end dominant... kick and bass are out of control... there's a sine wave tone at 1:11 or so? What the heck is that? Some good energy though.. nice vocal and guitar treatments...
maxim – toms are a little weak in the intro (mine are too). Sonics in the choruses are very scooped.. the bass guitar is all sub bass, and the vocals have a ton of clarity/sparkle (not what I heard as appropriate for a tune like this.) Oddly balanced, like in the section around 1:25... the effects trickery and left to right stuff is oddly matched. It's a call and response.. so each thing needs the focus when it is the focus...
teleric – bass needs more bottom. I like the kick level, but then again I'm allergic to dominant kick drums... vocals are getting lost... this could be a great mix with the bass and vocals up a little more... Good energy and seethe.... makes me anxious, which is a good thing I think.
Billy behdaz -- lispy vocal. Some heavy-handed treatments... overall mix lacks coherence... I'm hearing your mix trickery, not the song...
rob darling – nicely balanced... but I think the bass needs a little more bottom.. you're losing that little bass counter melody I love so well.
icombs – ooh, that's a strange one. Now that's a scooped mix... Vocals are incredibly sibilant.. The whole mix is strangely distant, like I'm listening through a 30 foot plastic pipe. Low end is nonexistent, except a little boost of sub bass.
tomorrow is already here - http://www.worksongs.net/
|
|
|
| Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion [message #332625 is a reply to message #332444 ] |
Fri, 11 April 2008 10:23 |
 |
j.hall
Messages: 3420
Registered: April 2004
Location: KC |
Platinum Member |
|
|
| imdrecordings wrote on Thu, 10 April 2008 22:06 |
There is something that's not being discussed at all.
|
indeed.....but that's always the case....
| Quote: |
There is a limit that a mix can be pushed before losing the music, band, song or message. In fact it can be worse when someone misses the point entirely and depends on an effect to ground a song. Some of the mixes I listened too, didn't even begin to identify with what the band was delivering and instead decided that they needed to make a statement with an effect or "avenue" that they(the mixer) decided to go down.
|
IMP has always suffered from some degree of this. i've never been able to figure out if it's really how people mix, or if they are attempting to "show" off in front of the class. not sure it really matters, but it does in fact exist on every IMP.
| Quote: |
You have to respect that in some way, shape or form that the music is the most important part as well as the people who are performing it. How can you as an artist or engineer deliver that message to even more people than they could, with out diluting the content.
|
many things make a mixers job difficult, but this issue seems to be a big one for many. i'm not sure why honestly. i'd like to believe that KNOWING the music and art are king would just come naturally.
| Quote: |
I thought this was the perfect exercise to match J's mix, because it was already at it's peak level of existence.
|
thanks for that. but honestly, my mix achieved what i wanted out of it, don't confuse that with some one else not being able to do a "better" job. i'm sure Andy Wallace would mop the floor with my mix. i'm also sure that there are many "unknown" mixers like myself, that could slay a record like this.
| Quote: |
I guess we all missed the boat entirely or just arrived too late to do what really mattered.
Cheers J. Where can I get me a copy of your album?
|
well, that's not entirely true. i think Adam Miller's mix was great. i do like my rhythm section better only cause it feels more aggressive to me. but at the end of the day, i agree with Brad's opinion.
the record will be on iTunes pretty soon. the digital booklet is being laid out now.
j.hall
Theta Rhythm
"You have a great ear for vibe and feel and space. I'm not looking for any of that right now."
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Fri Dec 5 09:35:11 CST 2008
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.03744 seconds |
Members
Search
FAQ
Register
Login
Home
