PSW Recording Forums: Klaus Heyne's Mic Lab => Mini massive M7 and K47 test

Church Sound Forums

Networking Forums

Live Sound Int'l

PSW Pro Audio Links

R/E/P

Recording Engineering & Production: Making records better, not just louder and cheaper. The brightest minds from the creative and scientific world of audio discuss the elements of audio production that interest you most.

Members

FAQ

FAQ

Register

Login

Home

Home » R/E/P » Klaus Heyne's Mic Lab » Mini massive M7 and K47 test

Show: Today's Messages :: Show Polls :: Message Navigator

E-mail to friend

Switch to threaded view of this topic

Create a new topic

Submit Reply

Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #340623]

Mon, 12 May 2008 11:10

Martin Kantola is currently offline

Martin Kantola
Messages: 255
Registered: June 2005

Active Member

Thought I'd do a little test with the following capsules on the same body and grille, and then share the sound files with you people:

- Neumann Berlin PVC M7
- Gefell PVC M7
- Thiersch rebuilt PVC M7
- Thiersch built PE M7
- Dale Ulan built PE M7
- Wagner rebuilt PE M7
- Thiersch rebuilt K47
- Neumann K47

Please let me know if you have any suggestions for the test. Any ideas welcome.

Martin

This message may have been edited by the moderator without my knowledge.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #341117 is a reply to message #340623 ]

Tue, 13 May 2008 18:53

Markus Sauschlager is currently offline

Markus Sauschlager
Messages: 128
Registered: April 2006
Location: Vienna, Austria

Active Member

I usually start a mic comparison by speaking into or/and playing acoustic guitar through the mic while monitoring through headphones. Almost always those first impressions remain valid.
However, I never trust myself initially as I fear that certain expectations could possibly bias my findings. So I record music played back through a speaker, maintaining always the same capsule position. For that test I found it very revealing to use music of many different styles and instrumentation (only high quality recordings of course).

After matching levels and exactly aligning the takes I can really A/B them. I found that very helpful to objectively compare how different frequency ranges and transients are processed as I always hear the identical sound source through each mic. Although recording a speaker really is a compromise, this method usually gives me a quite good idea about the real world behaviour of a mic.

I can't wait to hear the results!

Markus

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #341338 is a reply to message #340623 ]

Wed, 14 May 2008 10:24

Arf! Mastering
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2004
Location: New York City

Gold Member

In any test, repeatability is certainly important. (But) using a speaker as a source can be flawed in that that coloration of the speaker will work for or against the coloration in the mic.
Custom drivers are used as calibration sources in mic testing but, IMO, are not as valuable in making subjective judgements.

... With all the variables that surround mic testing - bodies, capsules, positioning, performance differences, it seems that mic evaluation is more an art than a science.

"Large signals can actually be counterproductive. If I scream at you over the phone, you don’t hear me better. If I shine a bright light in your eyes, you don’t see better.”

Dr. C.T. Rubin, biomechanical engineer

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #350857 is a reply to message #340623 ]

Fri, 20 June 2008 05:25

Martin Kantola is currently offline

Martin Kantola
Messages: 255
Registered: June 2005

Active Member

Almost ready for the test, received a CD with nice live jazz from Sweden, sent by Schallfeldwebel, thanks! Also found a way to mount an acoustic guitar in a fixed position:
It's a wall stand from K&M. Will not be very comfortable to play...

Martin

This message may have been edited by the moderator without my knowledge.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #365508 is a reply to message #350857 ]

Tue, 19 August 2008 16:16

Martin Kantola is currently offline

Martin Kantola
Messages: 255
Registered: June 2005

Active Member

Sorry for the long delay guys, but I'm finally about to get this test done. Have now prepared six original Neumann U47 heads with the six different M7 capsules mentioned. Decided to leave out the K47s from this round, because they are so different anyway, and also I did run out of available U47 heads...

Got the guitar stand/holder too, so next is matching the level differences. No point in trying to get the guitar in exactly the same spot if the levels are not matched.

Have also the speaker setup with the CD I got in the mail, and trying to figure out how I could get a bit of real human voice into the equation too.

Another question still bugging me is how well this will work with the guitar as the main source and recorded files. Found out in another test that mp3s are out of the question, comparing a cheap $2 electret mike to a trusty $2000 DPA 4006...

Sorry for taking so much time for preparations and thoughts, but it's pointless if it doesn't reveal anything useful in the end.
Martin

All set now as you can see. The guitar stays in place!

http://www.nordicaudiolabs.com/samples/guitarholder.jpg

http://www.nordicaudiolabs.com/samples/ghostguitar.jpg

http://www.nordicaudiolabs.com/samples/U47heads1.jpg

http://www.nordicaudiolabs.com/samples/U47heads2.jpg

http://www.nordicaudiolabs.com/samples/U47heads3.jpg

Martin

This message may have been edited by the moderator without my knowledge.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #365903 is a reply to message #365508 ]

Thu, 21 August 2008 07:56

Martin Kantola is currently offline

Martin Kantola
Messages: 255
Registered: June 2005

Active Member

Klaus, I can't help feeling you threw out the baby with the bathwater while radically cleaning up this thread. IMHO, there were a lot of useful suggestions and helpful points from people in preparation for the test. And what's the rush anyway?

Martin

This message may have been edited by the moderator without my knowledge.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #365994 is a reply to message #365903 ]

Thu, 21 August 2008 13:39

Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2148
Registered: April 2004

Platinum Member

Martin,
My main job in running this forum is to provide information and opportunities for inquiry on a level that a working professional can make time for.

Until I stepped in, we had in this thread four pages of posts but still haven't had a chance to hearing your tests.

Your idea of comparing many versions of the same type of capsule is wonderful. But I let you know repeatedly that I thought we had digested enough of the preliminaries and that it was time for you to share the results.

I have no doubt that the now condensed version of the preliminaries will be appreciated when someone reads this thread in a year or two. Now we have plenty of space to discuss the actual test results. I promise to let the exchanges flow, once you finally get around to posting sound files.

Best regards,

Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #367536 is a reply to message #365994 ]

Thu, 28 August 2008 11:02

Martin Kantola is currently offline

Martin Kantola
Messages: 255
Registered: June 2005

Active Member

http://www.panphonic.com/M7/

has the first samples, recorded yesterday. All in 24bit/44.1kHz. Kept them short for easy download. Do you guys want to do some educated guessing first or should I post the details of each capsule used right away?

As I had hoped, the loudspeaker test proved useful for matching the levels by the nulling method (one sample polarity inverted). Listening to the results of nulling is also interesting, because it directly corresponds to the differences.

Martin

This message may have been edited by the moderator without my knowledge.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #367545 is a reply to message #367536 ]

Thu, 28 August 2008 11:36

matti is currently offline

matti
Messages: 14
Registered: February 2008
Location: Finland

Member

Thanks Martin!
Actually I would like to know the details now if its ok with others?

Best

Matti

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #367591 is a reply to message #367545 ]

Thu, 28 August 2008 14:06

seedyunderbelly.com is currently offline

seedyunderbelly.com
Messages: 917
Registered: May 2007
Location: LA CA

Gold Member

+1 Whenever you are ready!

www.seedyunderbelly.com

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #367597 is a reply to message #367591 ]

Thu, 28 August 2008 14:13

Martin Kantola is currently offline

Martin Kantola
Messages: 255
Registered: June 2005

Active Member

OK, try reloading/refreshing the page now. You should be able to click to reveal the details.

Martin

This message may have been edited by the moderator without my knowledge.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #367616 is a reply to message #367597 ]

Thu, 28 August 2008 15:09

matti is currently offline

matti
Messages: 14
Registered: February 2008
Location: Finland

Member

Thanks again, this was really interesting...
Last time I was in a studio with U 48 s they where out for
service, so I coudnt compare to mine

Matti

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #367702 is a reply to message #367616 ]

Thu, 28 August 2008 20:00

rodabod is currently offline

rodabod
Messages: 207
Registered: December 2005
Location: London

Active Member

That's great, Martin.

I'll hold back any comments until people have had a chance to listen blind.

May I ask what year/month you bought your Dale M7? Just wondering if it is an earlier or later revision.

Cheers,

Roddy

Roddy Bell

BBC / Siemens

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #367709 is a reply to message #367702 ]

Thu, 28 August 2008 20:23

Martin Kantola is currently offline

Martin Kantola
Messages: 255
Registered: June 2005

Active Member

March 2008. So impressed by what Dale is doing, if you guys haven't seen his website, check it out! As an example: http://www.10000cows.com/new_mic_photos.htm

Martin

This message may have been edited by the moderator without my knowledge.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #368202 is a reply to message #340623 ]

Sat, 30 August 2008 15:04

kats is currently offline

kats
Messages: 725
Registered: September 2005

Gold Member

I only listened to the male voice and thought that capsule 3 stood shoulders above the others - a little more presence that added a bit more excitement. I'm sure the difference would be more than slight if I was there.

Tony Katsabanis

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mini massive M7 and K47 test [message #368204 is a reply to message #340623 ]

Sat, 30 August 2008 15:09

kats is currently offline

kats
Messages: 725
Registered: September 2005

Gold Member

Oh just checked out the acoustics - quite a difference between Gefell's PVC and Neumann's...

Was that a new Gefell PVC? It didn't seem to have the body.

Tony Katsabanis

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Pages (3): [1 2 3 > »]

Switch to threaded view of this topic

Create a new topic

Submit Reply

Previous Topic:	RCF Microphones?
Next Topic:	So Klaus, what's the progress of THE MICROPHONE BOOK?

Goto Forum:

-=] Back to Top [=-

[ Generate printable PDF ] [ Syndicate this forum (XML) ] [

]

Current Time: Tue Oct 14 06:18:01 CDT 2008

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.04237 seconds

Sponsored Links

Powered by: FUDforum 2.7.4 Copyright ©2001-2008 Advanced Internet Designs Inc.