Home » R/E/P » Klaus Heyne's Mic Lab » Replace a Tele/USA Capsule with an AKG CK12 Capsule?
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| Re: Replace a TK12 cap with a CK12 cap [message #219674 is a reply to message #219644 ] |
Thu, 08 February 2007 11:31   |
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 J.J. Blair
Messages: 12567
Registered: May 2004
Location: by the sea & sand |
Diamond Member |
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In my opinion, it would be worth it to use an original CK12. However, I would NOT use a reskinned one. I do know that this is an option that can be done by Tele USA. I would see if there is some trade in value for your TK12 with them, and let them do the work. This could be expensive, though.
I also wonder if you went with the CK12 that the transformer should be changed from the T14 to the T14-1. (Neither of these transformer model designations are to be confused with the real T14 or T14/1 which were exclusively made for AKG at the time. K.H)
It is my understanding that they are using the 'T14', as it was best suited to the TK12 capsule. The bass response of the 'T14-1' was ultimately what wound up in original CK12 and 6072 based mics.
One engineer I know, who has heard many 251s over the years, described a CK12 equipped Tele USA 251 as one of the best 251s he'd ever heard.
studio info
They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.
"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher
"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
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| Re: Replace a TK12 cap with a CK12 cap [message #219797 is a reply to message #219644 ] |
Thu, 08 February 2007 17:28 |
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T-Funk Ian
Messages: 10
Registered: February 2007
Location: South Windsor, CT |
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Hey Chris,
Honestly, it wouldn't be worth it to get a historic capsule. Our capsules are built to the same specs as the historic CK-12's are. The reason that there might be some subjective sonic differences is because they are 40 year old capsules. A 40 year old capsule is like a 40 year old speaker, slightly smoother sounding and less detailed because it has been stressed over hours of useage. Our capsules are the way that they were 50 years ago, but only new production. If you really have your heart set on a historic capsule, I can accommodate you, but it would be more costly due to the scarcity of good sounding historic examples. Mr. Thiersch does great work re-skinning historic Neumann capsules, but his work on AKG capsules is not up to spec. Plus, a re-skinned capsule is basically a new capsule, so what is the point. Besides, if you like the way yours sounds, why change it?
Ian Jones
Telefunken | USA
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| Re: Replace a TK12 cap with a CK12 cap [message #219806 is a reply to message #219797 ] |
Thu, 08 February 2007 18:08 |
Chris Wulff
Messages: 36
Registered: February 2007
Location: Copenhagen |
Member |
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| T-Funk Ian wrote on Thu, 08 February 2007 17:28 |
Hey Chris,
Our capsules are the way that they were 50 years ago, but only new production. a re-skinned capsule is basically a new capsule, so what is the point. Besides, if you like the way yours sounds, why change it?
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Okay, i think i drop it,  it was only a momentary sickness of enhancing, as I always have  . But i am not into capsules so it was only a thought.
@Ian
I am courious, what is the deal with your original CK12 capsules? Are they NOS or reskinned? Because they are fairly pricey.
PS:
I am very happy with the mic as it is (Tele 251F), it sounds perfect.
And great service by all of you guys and girls at Telefunken.
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| Re: Replace a TK12 cap with a CK12 cap [message #219901 is a reply to message #219797 ] |
Fri, 09 February 2007 01:03 |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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I (unfortunately!) have not had the chance to form an opinion about Telefunken-USA's currently made copies of the AKG CK12- capsules. They may be wonderful or not so wonderful. I honestly don't know. After receiving some early prototypes, I have patiently waited to audition a current sample now for more that three years. Toni Fishman, who owns Telefunken-USA, has told me repeatedly that when he feels he is ready, he will send me a copy to test.
In the meantime, while I admire your enthusiasm for your company's goals and achievements, I politely take issue with your claim:
| T-Funk Ian wrote on Thu, 08 February 2007 15:28 |
Honestly, it wouldn't be worth it to get a historic capsule. Our capsules are built to the same specs as the historic CK-12's are.
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How do we know that? I am not aware that AKG or anybody historically associated with the manufacturing or design of the original CK12 capsule has ever given you or anyone else access to any information pertaining to the diaphragms, to the specs AKG deemed relevant, or to their methods of manufacturing these capsules.
AKG, like every other venerable capsule manufacturer, protects capsule details from getting to the public or the competition, for obvious reasons: that's the last domain of microphone manufacture that is very hard to reverse-engineer by competitors.
If you have been given access to AKG's trade secrets, and feel that your capsules come close to the real thing, I will gladly apologize, and am eagerly awaiting to evaluate your CK12 copy, as soon as you give me a chance.
Best regards,
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: Replace a TK12 cap with a CK12 cap [message #220151 is a reply to message #219644 ] |
Fri, 09 February 2007 17:46 |
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T-Funk Ian
Messages: 10
Registered: February 2007
Location: South Windsor, CT |
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Dear Klaus,
First of all, I really admire your efforts in the tube microphone field and I am a great fan of the VM1 KHE, and without your help in selling us the Ela M trademark, our quest never would have come this far.
However, given the fact that we compete in similar fields manufacturing, modifying and restoring classic tube microphone system, we as Telefunken USA feel that you can not be neutral in your assessment of our products, including our current production of the CK12 capsule.
As you know through our relationship together, AKG supplied us the remaining drawings on the CK12, as well as the Ela M 251 body parts, and over the last few years we recovered several production manuals on the CK12 tensioning devices, and additional proprietary information of the historic assembly technique (pre-Harmon AKG). So to respond to your comment, yes we have acquired access to certain trade secrets and yes we KNOW that our capsules are close to the real thing (as close as you can come to a 40 year old capsule), infact we are willing to post our frequency response curves here first thing next week.
Unfortunately we can not reveal the sources of the trade secrets, nor do we wish to discuss any of these details in public.
At the beginning Toni wanted your help, not realizing that you would become a direct competitor to our product. Please forgive that fact that we have let you wait that long. It would be best if we let the recording public decide on how well we have done.
(http://www.telefunkenusa.com/customers/)
Best Regards,
Ian Jones
Telefunken USA
Ian Jones
Telefunken | USA
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| Re: Replace a TK12 cap with a CK12 cap [message #220173 is a reply to message #220151 ] |
Fri, 09 February 2007 18:53 |
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J.J. Blair
Messages: 12567
Registered: May 2004
Location: by the sea & sand |
Diamond Member |
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Ian, thank you for taking part in this discussion! But, if I can stand up for Klaus here, I'd like to add something:
First off, I have seen him speak well of other manufacturers. Also, he no longer is making the VM-1 KHE, and is not making any revival capsules, so I don't see any conflict of objectivity. He simply modifies microphones and has probably more first hand experience with various CK12s than anybody outside of AKG. I had him examine three of mine, and was dumbfounded by his knowledge of their workings and specs.
A response curve is not a complete picture. Audio is science AND art, and a good pair of ears seem to be the link between the two. When it comes to microphones, I implicity trust Klaus' ears. Besides, music is dynamic, and a static supply of noise never truly tells the whole story.
Now, I'm saying this without trying to open up a sleeping can of worms, but as far as comparing new capsules to older ones, that brings up a few questions and some points.
First off, there are NOS examples of spare CK12s out there (I own one), that, due to the stability of Mylar should not be affected by age. I don't think it should be a problem to compare a TK12 to one of these. Secondly, I know that the CK12 had been refined over the years. It started out using Styroflex, which was not as stable as Mylar. They also made adjustments to the tensioning ring, the tension itself, the backplate, etc. Which era CK12 did Tele USA base its TK12 on? I know that some people prefer certain vintages, and I have always been curious about this.
studio info
They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.
"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher
"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
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| Re: Replace a TK12 cap with a CK12 cap [message #220198 is a reply to message #219797 ] |
Fri, 09 February 2007 19:57 |
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maarvold
Messages: 792
Registered: April 2004
Location: Simi Valley, CA |
Gold Member |
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| T-Funk Ian wrote on Thu, 08 February 2007 15:28 |
Hey Chris,
Honestly, it wouldn't be worth it to get a historic capsule. Our capsules are built to the same specs as the historic CK-12's are...
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Ian,
I don't know you, but from your signature line I assume you must be employed by Telefunken USA (or maybe you ARE Telefunken USA, so to speak).
For the same reason that Telefunken USA has chosen not to supply Klaus with an evaluation capsule - conflict of interest - I believe your statements should be "stricken from the record". If you don't see that your post is, in effect, an infommercial and, by its very nature, could not possibly be an unbiased testimonial, maybe you should take another look.
Or, if it is just 'friendly advice from the man who knows'--which it very well might be--shouldn't our host, Klaus, be allowed to respond in the same fashion: as a person 'in the know' who is dispensing 'friendly advice'?
Michael Aarvold
Audio Engineer
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| Re: Replace a TK12 cap with a CK12 cap [message #220203 is a reply to message #220151 ] |
Fri, 09 February 2007 20:03 |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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| T-Funk Ian wrote on Fri, 09 February 2007 15:46 |
At the beginning Toni wanted your help, not realizing that you would become a direct competitor to our product. Please forgive that fact that we have let you wait that long. It would be best if we let the recording public decide on how well we have done.
Best Regards,
Ian Jones
Telefunken USA
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Ian,
I can well understand that you would want to keep any trade secrets you obtained or discovered to yourself.
Your final sentence is the one I feel sad about, because so far in many years of involvement in the microphone world I have not had any relations of the kind of dog-eats-dog nature you allude to.
Yes, indeed, countless hours did I spend with (free) telephone advice for Toni, and many (free) sample bags of original ELA M hardware did I send Toni's way, so that he could start reverse engineering his parts.
I wanted him to succeed, even if there was just a small chance, because it was clear that AKG had lost any interest in reviving historic models. That's also why I introduced Toni to the Grandmaster of the "old" AKG, Norbert Sobol.
I have no idea why you (or was it actually Toni who asked you to write this?) would think that I am now a competitor for your capsules, especially as I am not and have never been in the business of making capsules or providing know-how to others about capsule designs like the CK12.
If you have the belief that it would not be good for you to send me a sample of your CK12 copy (presumably because I would pan the sample?) that would be even more disconcerting.
I still keep the (naive?) belief, formed from my dealings with industry leaders over the years, that our tiny world of microphones is somewhat above the cut throat approach of many other businesses. I hope that you and Toni will continue to share that attitude.
To remind you why I responded to your initial post:
Please understand that I take my job as a forum host here seriously. So, when a manufacturer makes claims about a product on this forum, like you did, it's important that the forum's content stays true to one of its core principles: any such claims shall be questioned and investigated, otherwise the line between advertising and information sharing is quickly breached, and the forum becomes just another industry shill.
Best regards,
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: Replace a Tele/USA CK12 with an AKG CK12 Capsule? [message #220225 is a reply to message #219644 ] |
Fri, 09 February 2007 22:22 |
Tim Campbell
Messages: 192
Registered: April 2004
Location: Denmark |
Active Member |
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I also am saddened to read Telefunken's response. I haven't found anyone in the microphone field more forthcoming or less self serving than Klaus....
It may also be that like most people in this industry that they prefer to be surrounded by those who, instead of offering constructive criticism, only act as an extension of their advertising network.
Campbell Transmitter
www.timcampbell.dk
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