Home » R/E/P » Klaus Heyne's Mic Lab » New Telefunken Mics
| New Telefunken Mics [message #22557] |
Wed, 29 September 2004 16:23  |
 Brent Handy
Messages: 171
Registered: April 2004 |
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Klaus, have you had a chance to look under the hood of the new Telefunken USA mics? Putting the unlikelyhood of appreciation aside, would a "new Ela M251" be just as good performance-wise as an original that has been refurbed?
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| Re: New Telefunken Mics [message #22614 is a reply to message #22557 ] |
Thu, 30 September 2004 00:10  |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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| Brent wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 14:23 |
Klaus, have you had a chance to look under the hood of the new Telefunken USA mics?
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No. I have been promised a sample from Toni Fishman, but have not received it yet. I have tested several of the (early version) CK12 clone capsules which are used in that mic, but don't feel like commenting on this or any other prototypes.
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...would a "new Ela M251" be just as good performance-wise as an original that has been refurbed?
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That is a subjective question to which neither I can give you an answer (see above) nor do I believe that others who have actually "tested" this reinterpretation of a famous mic are quite credible enough for me to be authoritative on the subject:
No complex capsule system like that of the CK12 or K67 (the U67 capsule) that has ever been duplicated or cloned or whatever you want to call it, sounds exactly like the original (better: like an average of the original.)
If you assume that the capsule is one of the main sound shaping components of a condenser mic, you have to allow that a reinterpretation will never sound like the real thing, no matter how satisfying it may be on its own (which is a sensible enough criterium in itself to base a purchasing decision on)
So, the short answer would be that in my estimation a very thoughtfully executed clone may sound very good, but will not sound like the original.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: New Telefunken Mics [message #22812 is a reply to message #22665 ] |
Thu, 30 September 2004 23:00 |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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| Brent wrote on Thu, 30 September 2004 07:15 |
I would want a pair of 251s. ...would it be possible to have two mics of the same year refurbished and modified close to one another? If so, what were the best years/runs to look for?
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Considering that these mics were only made for barely three years, and that the specs and execution barely varied from one another during that time, I would not even start to contemplate 'same year' or 'consecutive' searches. Just make sure, they both have the same tube: 251E with GE 6072, 251 (no E) with Telefunken AC701.
Be happy if you can find two ELAMs that are still in working order, and whose plastic parts have not disintegrated.
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What is the lifespan of a vintage mic capsule under the best of circumstances?
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Depends on manufacturer, diaphragm material used, and capsule type.
If no user abuse has occurred, polyester diaphragms, even those made in 1960, have not age in any measurable way to date. The trick with AKG's CK12 capsule is to find one whose original diaphragms have not collapsed. In my estimation, ca. 30-40% of the original CK12 in the field today can be defined as still working 'to factory specs' The rest is shot.
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The only reason that I would consider the new Telefunkens is the possibility of aquiring replacement diaphragms.
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Do you have knowledge that these replacement diaphragms sound or last like originals?
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However, I understand that the new old-stock NOS tubes used in the new mics are in short supply as well.
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Plenty of 6072 around, and with some luck at prices under $20.-
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At some point all of the vintage mic owners are going to have a worthless bunch of junk without the original tubes and diaphragms to put in them...right?
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Not right. You would need to cite examples for your theory.
I cannot find an example where any owner of a vintage mic could not obtain either a tube or a capsule (that includes M7 PVC, VF14, etc.)
Of course, nobody says that it's cheap to restore a gem.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: New Telefunken Mics [message #22891 is a reply to message #22881 ] |
Fri, 01 October 2004 13:47 |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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| David Satz wrote on Fri, 01 October 2004 10:32 |
...When you say, "The trick with AKG's CK12 capsule is to find one whose original diaphragms have not collapsed," what does this mean? Is it a loss of physical tensioning of the membrane(s), or something else?
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It is the loss of diaphragm tension, a purely physical phenomenon, that is the weak part of the CK12: A large diaphragm which is tensioned to create a balanced response but which is unsupported in the center, tends to get sucked in by the polarization voltage applied to the backplate after a while. This trend is accelerated by abuse (temperature, high SPLs, etc.) especially with those samples which already were on the low tension side when leaving the manufacturer.
Some aftermarket re-builders try to avoid the consequences of electrostatic suck by increasing the diaphragm tension, which has obvious repercussions to the resonance frequency of the diaphragm as well as to the low frequency output.
To build a LD capsule at nominal tension, and operate it at 60VDC, and not support it in the center is a challenge for long term stability.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: New Telefunken Mics [message #23028 is a reply to message #22557 ] |
Sat, 02 October 2004 14:28 |
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Oliver Archut
Messages: 1331
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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Hello Brent,
I have to disagree, tape machines are fall into the category of supporting audio equipment, since about ten years or so people realizing that a mic is more an instrument.
Even there a differences from tape- to tape machine manufacture, but there is a bigger difference from mic to mic of the same type an even bigger differences from type to type and maker to maker.
Electron tubes were pronounced dead in the early 80, than again the big western manufactures did some additional productions runs in the mid 80s, GECs KT series and Telefunkens EL156 and AC701 types, before closing the door forever due to changes in owner ship. etc.
Now 20 years later the decline of the former East Block manufacture is slowly showing up, but in the last few years very small specialty manufactures emerged to provide a very small market of customers for specialty tubes like 300B, AD1, etc.
With dwindling supplies of remaining stock of VF14 and AC701 some small company will fill the gap, if there are customer that are willing to pay the premium price of small manufacturing.
Some small companies tooled up to make new mic connectors, and entire replacement sets, recently a company in china tooled up to make the sockets needed for the EL152, the same used for VF14, etc.
As long there are people that willing to do what is needed to get a superior sound/tone or even just the high detail resolution of good mics, that long there will be manufactures that go the extra mile.
By the way, Sennheiser tried several times to remake the U47, always stopped due to the very high cost involved.
Best regards,
Oliver Archut
www.tab-funkenwerk.com
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| Re: New Telefunken Mics [message #23195 is a reply to message #23039 ] |
Mon, 04 October 2004 07:45 |
RMoore
Messages: 4377
Registered: May 2004
Location: Spaceship Earth |
Platinum Member |
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If I may dare to comment on this :
I have seen talk around town , obviously not by preeminent mic experts but recordists, that the new Telefunken 251 remakes sound very much like the originals - bearing in mind any originals have differences in the sound between mics anyway due to ageing of components etc..
I doubt the remakes would hold thier value as much as an original eg: a remake would likely depreciate whereas an original will likely still appreciate over time...(how high can it go?)
FWIW - I have heard an orig ELAM 251 in action one time demoed as a single drum mic on a jazz kit, through a V72 and Studer A80 - I shall never forget how awesome the sound was..somehow even better than being in the room.
(BTW - do you think it could be possible: a reissue manufacturer buying up originals for full market price to analyse them or - in order to make the origs scarcer, thus increasing market chances for their own product?)
FWIW - If I had the $ and was in the market for a 251 I would seriously consider a remake that sounded as good , or close enough...thats just me.
Might be another story if I say worked with a famous singer booking tons of studio time, who would only record on an orig 251..
RM
People's Republic of Ryan
http://www.myspace.com/twilightcircus
http://www.youtube.com/user/Ryonik
By the end of today, another day is gone forever. You will never get it back.
We must never let up for a second. Work harder at every single thing - Terry Manning
You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take - Wayne Gretzky
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| Re: New Telefunken Mics [message #23218 is a reply to message #22557 ] |
Mon, 04 October 2004 12:04 |
Plush
Messages: 261
Registered: April 2004
Location: Chicago |
Active Member |
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New ones will depreciate just like any new equipment.
Beware of anyone asking you to "invest" in a "classic."
Still, if the new ones do it for your recordings, give the remakers your cashish.
Hudson Fair
Atelier HudSonic, Chicago
http://www.myspace.com/hudsonek
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| Re: New Telefunken Mics [message #23221 is a reply to message #23199 ] |
Mon, 04 October 2004 12:09 |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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| Brent wrote on Mon, 04 October 2004 07:02 |
WHY should the originals keep going up in value if the majority (Klause says) do not work, do not work to factory spec and/or have been modified?
That's like taking a 70's Hemi Cuda' that is all original, and putting a new crate Hemi motor in it. ...But the restored car is now just eye candy. It still performs, but it is not the same.
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You describe the dilemma and challenge to any restoration of a desirable vintage mic: How much can you substitute original components before the mic becomes just "eye candy"?
My approach has always been: optimize, but never alter a mic's core components, i.e. capsule, transformer, tube, etc. unless the client asks for it or does no longer expect the original (core) characteristics from the mic.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: New Telefunken Mics [message #23228 is a reply to message #23221 ] |
Mon, 04 October 2004 12:32 |
RMoore
Messages: 4377
Registered: May 2004
Location: Spaceship Earth |
Platinum Member |
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<But that is just it. WHY should the originals keep going up in value if the majority (Klause says) do not work, do not work to factory spec and/or have been modified? That doesn't make sense.>
Obviously non-working ones wouldn't appreciate in value,
But working orig models will I would expect - due to the fact they are recognised as a true mic legend & in demand by people willing for reasons of major cash flow or business needs to pay the current crazy prices.
As far as modified or ones not actually working to original specs - I think the average mic user wouldn't even be aware eg: its not like a car where you can pop the hood and see what's happening right away..eg: even if an engineer / producer 251 owner popped the hood as it were on the mic, any mods may not be readily apparent & would probably lack the necessary test equipment and T-funken documentation to even run tests on the mic's performance, determining any differences...thus, it'd still work, produce sound & be a 251 in all intents and purposes....and price (!)..IMHO.
People's Republic of Ryan
http://www.myspace.com/twilightcircus
http://www.youtube.com/user/Ryonik
By the end of today, another day is gone forever. You will never get it back.
We must never let up for a second. Work harder at every single thing - Terry Manning
You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take - Wayne Gretzky
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