Home » R/E/P » Fletcher » pres..... is it just all in our heads?
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #339831 is a reply to message #339769 ] |
Thu, 08 May 2008 14:07   |
 brett
Messages: 726
Registered: May 2004
Location: Hollywood, CA |
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| Abbeyville Road wrote on Thu, 08 May 2008 16:13 |
How about a good room and great band but mid-road equipment?
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I doubt you're going to get clean modern pop sounds that can be pushed to "loud" with not so good gear. But, if you have a good room and a good band you're ahead of the game on most points. You could get a decent sounding record using mid level gear with high level skills.
If all you had were 57's and somtething like a mackie onyx, and the band was awesome and the room good, and the mic placement correct, I see no reason why a good engineer couldn't squeeze the most out of that situation and turn a good product out. I would suggest having it mixed in an equally good sounding mix room by an equally good mix engineer. But don't expect cleints to line up if the gear isn't professional.
The tracking is only as good as the weakest link. Good converters and natural open sounding pre's in a bad room will just capture all that bad room. In a not so good room I stick to tight cardiod dynamic mics like 57's, sm7, RE20 and nevish sounding pre's. Keep it dark and try and keep the room out of the mics using gobos. Make up for it in the mix with quality reverbs, good eq's and creative mixing. this works for me and the sound I am going for.
You really need to know what sound you're going for and then get the gear to achieve that. If a vocal project is POP stuff, a good room and high end condensors and tube pre's is what you might need. For Hip hop, LD Condensors and Neve pre's in a dry tight room. R&B and Jazz...Vintage LD condensors mics with tube pre's in a larger nice natural room. And always track through the best converters you can afford. For rock vocals, dynamic mics and Nevish is what I use. For others they reach for API. It's all about the destination and the choices you make to get there. Gear does play a big roal in that.
You could have a great room and great gear and still not get what you want if the choices made were the wrong ones.
That is the long answer... the short answer....you can always buy gear. You can't buy experience and a good band is a great place to start.
Good luck with your set-up!
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #340539 is a reply to message #309376 ] |
Sun, 11 May 2008 23:44 |
mikey
Messages: 95
Registered: October 2005
Location: L.A. |
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I have done a few comparisons with a few preamps that i have.An i have found one that can create a bigger sound image.Don't you think that a top notch preamp will make a bigger image than a semi-pro preamp?..Same with a good microphone.
MIKEY
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #340662 is a reply to message #340539 ] |
Mon, 12 May 2008 12:52 |
Halfway Competent
Messages: 54
Registered: December 2007 |
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| mikey wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 21:44 |
Don't you think that a top notch preamp will make a bigger image than a semi-pro preamp?..Same with a good microphone.
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Here's my take on imaging. In order for an audio reproduction system to "fool" your ears and brain into thinking a sound is coming from a particular point in space (and not from the location of the speakers), a few things need to happen. First, both left and right speakers have to sound exactly the same. If you're to hear, say, vocals in the center, both ears need to hear the exact same sound to think that it's coming from right in front of the listener. When I built a pair of speakers, I paid excruciating attention to making sure each cabinet was exactly the same. For example, when cutting cabinet panels, I made cuts on both speakers before moving on to the next cut, to avoid slight measurement errors when re-adjusting the saw. As a result, the imaging in the finished product is stunning.
Second, in order to get a realistic sense of "being there" you need as much detail reproduction as possible. By this I mean your audio chain needs to be able to audibly reproduce really quiet sounds while reproducing louder sounds. (Some call this "ambience retrieval.") The ear can gauge how far away a sound is by how much direct sound you hear, compared with how much room ambience you hear. The more clearly the room ambience is reproduced, the better the illusion of space.
Both of these traits are enhanced, the better product you buy, be it a mic pre, microphone, or speakers. The best gear is going to be manufactured to tighter tolerances than cheap gear, so you're more likely to have multiple pieces that sound exactly the same; also, presumably one of the desirable traits of high-end mics and preamps is their clarity, so you're more likely to get better clarity from high-end equipment. All this adds up to much higher chances of achieving the spatial imaging characteristics you're looking for.
Again, this is my opinion, since I've not actually studied this. Hope it's helpful!
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #341181 is a reply to message #337970 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 21:58 |
Edvaard
Messages: 58
Registered: April 2008
Location: Atlanta |
Member |
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| marshmellow wrote on Wed, 30 April 2008 16:16 |
Regading high end vs low end pres:
My mix engineer says he has to spend about 1/5th the time it used to, to get tracks where he wants them.
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That is an aspect not often brought up regarding better mic's/equipment, but so true.
Half a lifetime ago my work was in live shows. I spent so much time trying to get a bunch of SM 57's, 58's, a few sennheiser's, and some PCM's on the deck, to sound such a way that didn't make me cringe. Fussing with this and that, trying all different EQ tricks, cajoling, pleading, different gain schemes, etc.
Part of the trick was to have the least bad sounding thing(s) the loudest in the mix. I even got complimented allot, but likely because I managed to keep the level just that .2 dB below where it would *unmistakably* be revealed as crap.
Anyways, the local PBS affiliate did a show in the venue I was working in with "five divas" doing mild jazz, etc. (with band) for a live broadcast. They brought their own live mixer, if needed, but once he heard my sound check he preferred that I do it.
All the mic's were theirs, from the studio, all Neumann's and AKG's. The same U67 was used for all the ladies. (This was in mid 80's, and none of the mic's were 'new')
I never had an easier time in my life. Set and forget, no sweating how I was going to make it listenable. Some smidgen of EQ on one or two things, that was it (no EQ at all on any of the singers). I set new levels as a different singer came up, but mostly I just relaxed and enjoyed the show.
Same mediocre Yamaha board, same Crown amps, same speakers.
The microphones were the only difference.
The difference wasn't just night and day, but more like night on one planet vs. day on another planet.
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #341580 is a reply to message #340889 ] |
Thu, 15 May 2008 01:15 |
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Fletcher
Messages: 1909
Registered: April 2004
Location: Foxboro, MA |
Platinum Member |
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| soundmind wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 04:06 |
Often, out of respect for the performers/and me, I don't record until we are ready.
---snip happens---
I have noticed that some great music is going to waste.
---snip happens---
Hard drive space is cheap, so grab it all.
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Bingo!!
Even in the days of analog I found that there are times when the musicians happen to find something genius by accident... if it's recorded then it's been recorded... if it wasn't recorded then it's nothing more than a memory for all involved... unfortunately, people can't buy your memories they can only purchase your recordings... which can then turn into their memories
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid
"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too. It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm
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