Home » R/E/P » Klaus Heyne's Mic Lab » My U47 Capsule Tests
| My U47 Capsule Tests [message #340885] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 02:37  |
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 J.J. Blair
Messages: 10046
Registered: May 2004
Location: by the sea & sand |
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I threw a few K47s on my U47 tonight, to see how they matched up. I was surprised at the results. The one I keep on my mic is a K47 that was reskinned by Blue, that was on my Blue 47. When I got my real 47, it had what I presume was a Doug Walker reskin, since the mic had been serviced by Bill Bradley. I found the bass lacking, so I kept the Blue reskin, and sold the other capsule with my Blue 47.
I took a white ringed K47 out of Barry's T-USA 47, and I took an older cream ringed K47 out of my M49. I had a spare KK47 assembly, so switching them was quick, and after testing with voice and guitar I was able to eliminate all the variables that could have chalked up the tonal differences to performance, I have to say that I'm shocked at how similar all three capsules sound. Singing, or just strumming a simple E chord in a repetitive pattern, I'm really impressed at how matched the three or four year old K47 sounds compared to the older one. I'm also really impressed at what a good job the guys at Blue did on rediaphragming this capsule. I just wish they hadn't used those blue colored tension rings with their name on it.
But it makes me a little skeptical about the notion that reskinning at least a K47 to factory standards isn't entirely possible. But I'll bet the number of reskinned K47s that don't sound right far outnumbers the ones that do!
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| Re: tonight's K47 tests [message #341000 is a reply to message #340980 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 12:14  |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2027
Registered: April 2004 |
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What I am about to say is bold, subjective, done from great distance, and not going to please you, J.J., but is entirely based on my (relatively long) experience with comparative listening:
Considering your conclusions, I think you suffer not from bad ears (after playing only for a short time with the Who, your hearing is hopefully still superb!) but from bad monitoring for this test.
Why would I say that? You should have been able do discern without much effort the audio foot print of EVERY single capsule you tested. They ALL should have sounded distinctly different from each other; as a matter of fact, each side of every capsule you tested should have sounded clearly better or worse than the other!
So, regardless which capsule and side you preferred in the end, a sentence like
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I have to say that I'm shocked at how similar all three capsules sound.
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gives away flaws in your monitoring. My guess is that somewhere in the listening chain there is a big drop in resolution. (I hope you monitored with good headphones? If not, you'll be in for a surprise-the fine print comes into view immediately when monitoring with phones!)
In conclusion, I'd be curious what your audio chain was for this test.
best regards,
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: tonight's K47 tests [message #341016 is a reply to message #341000 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 12:58 |
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J.J. Blair
Messages: 10046
Registered: May 2004
Location: by the sea & sand |
Diamond Member |
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Klaus, Inward Connections Vac Rac pre, Apogee AD16X at 88.2/24, Inward Connections class A monitoring section, Genelec 1031s.
But Max does have an interesting point, because I was hearing differences on piano from 6 feet away.
Last night, I was initially hearing very noticeable differences on the acoustic, but I eventually concluded that it was due to positioning, or performance, and when I did them again, paying more attention to this, those differences went away. But then again, this was done at midnight, after a grueling day of vocals and comping, so I may have been suffering from serious ear fatigue. I'll give a fresh listen with fresh ears today, and see if I in fact missed something.
temporary webpage
They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.
"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher
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| Re: tonight's K47 tests [message #341035 is a reply to message #341016 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 13:49 |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2027
Registered: April 2004 |
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Genelecs to test microphone capsules?
What's your aversion to using headphones for such a test? They'd eliminate cross-contamination from two speakers mixing wave forms in the air before they reach your ears at random time; add to that the comb-filter effect you get from subtle feedback into the mic...
I wish you coud bring your ears and mics by my studio workshop. You'd be amazed at the improvement in discernable differences when eliminating speakers in such a test. (Of course, you could make the argument: If I cannot hear the differences on my favorite listening system, why bother? The answer- because it is deficient, and sooner or later you will encounter a system that will show up the differences.)
Here is an additional measure I use to improve resolution when monitoring for audible differences:
I monitor in mono, of course, but don't use the sum of two channels to drive the headphones and get a center image; instead, I use one mic pre channel and connect both headphone sides in parallel, by connecting the wires of both cords to the same (left) channel at the TRS jack.
On a (only slightly) related topic:
Next time you go to your audiologist for a hearing test, don't let him/her switch channels when testing left and right ears individually, but insist in simply reversing headphones from ear to ear. I have found that the variation in preamp channels and headphone sides is way too large, and unnecessarily contaminates a hearing test. Stick with the same set up for both ears. That way, the only variable will be your ear's response to the same signals.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: tonight's K47 tests [message #341043 is a reply to message #341041 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 14:09 |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2027
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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While I'm on this:
Don't record and compare. Too much deterioration in that process.
Listen live with headphones and replug the mic heads on the go, then compare.
Audible memory lasts about 15- 45 seconds, in my experience, so you'll have enough time to switch and listen and discern.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: tonight's K47 tests [message #341052 is a reply to message #341043 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 14:34 |
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 Tomas Danko
Messages: 3272
Registered: May 2004
Location: Stockholm, Sweden |
Platinum Member |
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One could on the other hand reason that our purpose for these microphones is in fact to record audio.
In our studios.
Using our very personal signal paths.
And then we mix it all together and call it music.
So, if the everyday signal path deteriorates the differences too much, I still think it's a valid "real-world" test that gives us an idea what the microphone will be like as a tool. In fact, for the test to mirror everyday usage perhaps using the entire signal path is a must.
Granted, you will probably hear more subtle nuances and greater a difference if listening live to the microphones using as short a signal path as possible. One could chalk it down to having deeper interest in finding out about everything regarding these capsules and microphones, by doing it this way. And I would probably not be able to keep myself from doing something like that. Our inquiring minds always wants to know about these things!
But that's not how we record music, atleast not for the greater number of us.
Secondly, with our audio memory being very short (and I'd probably say some nuances will escape our minds even quicker than 15 seconds) having recorded material to switch back and forth between suddenly does not come across as a bad idea. You can also compare the same recordings several times over a longer period of time.
You can solo tracks and avoid any silent gap whatsoever during playback.
...Still, comparing microphones using... 1031's? 
"T(Z)= (n1+n2*Z^-1+n2*Z^-2)/(1+d1*z^-1+d2*z^-2)" - Mr. Dan Lavry
"Shaw baa laa raaw, sidle' yaa doot in dee splaa" . Mr Shooby Taylor
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| Re: My U47 Capsule Tests [message #341119 is a reply to message #341114 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 19:11 |
Extreme Mixing
Messages: 676
Registered: April 2004
Location: Los Angeles, CA |
Gold Member |
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Remind me never to buy a microphone from you JJ. Changing capsules like that just gives me the creeps. There's probably nothing wrong with it, but it's so far from what I would do that it just feels wrong.
Steve
Steve
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| Re: My U47 Capsule Tests [message #341141 is a reply to message #341119 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 20:14 |
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Arf! Mastering
Messages: 775
Registered: June 2004
Location: New York City |
Gold Member |
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It's pretty easy to change capsules on the classic Neumanns. If you're careful and know what you're doing it's no great whoop.
I have a collection of 25 or so K47/K87/K67 capsules and rotate them at various times. As for K47s, I have some spanning 40 years of manufacture date and have to agree with JJ that they sound a lot more alike than different. I think what makes a particular vintage mic more interesting than another is the aggregate unpredictable and choatic drift in tolerances in membranes, tubes and capacitors. Hence the maxim, if you like the sound of your vintage Neumann, leave it alone unless it breaks.
"Large signals can actually be counterproductive. If I scream at you over the phone, you don’t hear me better. If I shine a bright light in your eyes, you don’t see better.”
Dr. C.T. Rubin, biomechanical engineer
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