Home » R/E/P » Klaus Heyne's Mic Lab » (M49) Mike Lovers- Unite!!!
| Re: (M49) Mike Lovers- Unite!!! [message #435964 is a reply to message #435960 ] |
Wed, 22 July 2009 18:58   |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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My take on a proper translation:
the capsule in a condenser mic operates at extremely high impedances (10 gig ohms and higher.)
If the capsule mount's material and plastic support base is not chosen carefully to maintain that extremely high isolation resistance, but lowers it, by means of conductivity through and over the material, towards ground (the metal case and other grounded points of the mic), the operation of the mic is compromised.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: (M49) Mike Lovers- Unite!!! [message #435977 is a reply to message #351412 ] |
Wed, 22 July 2009 21:33 |
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 Oliver Archut
Messages: 1331
Registered: April 2004 |
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All Hail to Milos!
I am indeed VERY happy with my FLEA 49 and my FLEA47.
Plastique affecting inpedence--have I read that correctly?
If so, this would be a new one on me.
Please help me understand because the explanation is in garbled English language.
with thanks,
HudSonic
Hello HudSonic,
if you are happy with your Flea products and they work as you think they should, all power to you!
From my view comparing it to an original M49 it is not the same and in the end we talk about original M49 mikes.
It is sometime difficult to come up with an technical explanation with not using technical terms at all,
so to reduce it with no garbling at all, the plastic is not identical.
Very difficult to come up with comparing Acrylic to PVC, because there are lots of variables depending on the manufacture, but PVC has about 10 times more resistance per a given surface than Acrylic materials, and machining might also reduce the resistance depending on temperature during machining as well as cutting fluid used.
Using Acetone or plain old Alcohol on Acrylic materials results within a few seconds with tiny fractures on the surface. On PVC it does not.
Best regards,
Oliver Archut
www.tab-funkenwerk.com
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| Re: (M49) Mike Lovers- Unite!!! [message #436023 is a reply to message #351412 ] |
Thu, 23 July 2009 08:01 |
Plush
Messages: 261
Registered: April 2004
Location: Chicago |
Active Member |
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Thank you Klaus and Oliver,
I am understanding a little more about what you are talking about but I am not understanding what effect on *sound* these acrylic top mounts might have.
Also, may I say that I am not afraid of a technical discussion or of technical language. Indeed terms of art are necessary in any
specialized scientific pursuit.
In using real Neumann M49 mics here and making comparisons with the FLEA 49 I have, I find them so similar as to be of no consequence in choosing for vocals, trumpet or other classic use for a M49.
With my "incorrect plastics" how is this virtually identical sound to be explained?
I also use M50 pairs here so I am a sophisticated tube mang. I am, however, admittedly, not an inside the mic mang as you experts are.
I'm just wanting to make sure that the differences you are talking about are not similar to the differences cited by the lunatic fringe in high end hi-fi. In other words, one hi-fi guru told me my preamp should be situated on a wooden shelf because if I make the grave mistake of putting it on a metal cabinet my sound will be ruined. Also if I am listening to anything but an LP, I'm fooling myself??
What Ho?? (--a saying attributed to Sherlock Holmes)
Hudson Fair
Atelier HudSonic, Chicago
http://www.myspace.com/hudsonek
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| Re: (M49) Mike Lovers- Unite!!! [message #436046 is a reply to message #436023 ] |
Thu, 23 July 2009 12:03 |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
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Hudson,
I cannot comment on the actual issue with respect to the lowering of impedances in FLEA's M49-type product, due to plastics used in the high impedance area, because I am not familiar with this product.
I can only comment in general on what sonic effect impedance lowering would have in such a case as Oliver describes: noise. The amount would depend on the severity of the impedance loss, and would either be heard as steady white noise or some form of discharge noise.
There may also be more subtle effects on the audio generated by low-level background noise- masking, for example- but that, again would depend on the severity of the noise present.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: (M49) Mike Lovers- Unite!!! [message #436054 is a reply to message #436046 ] |
Thu, 23 July 2009 12:54 |
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J.J. Blair
Messages: 12567
Registered: May 2004
Location: by the sea & sand |
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Hudson, I'm finding it a bit difficult to believe that differences you are hearing between the FLEA and the Neumann are inconsequential, considering two of the three most important elements of the mics are dissimilar: The capsule and the transformer.
I've been going through hours of experimentation trying to get two different builds of Neumann M49 to behave similarly, where just one component makes what I can hear as a huge difference. And in fact, when testing, I have to use the same capsule on each mic, because the K47s of different eras react differently enough, that I can completely hear their effect on the sound.
That's why I'm having a hard time with that statement. Especially when you consider that the only thing the FLEA and the Neumann have in common are the body shape and the tube, because every other component is not the same ... not to mention that I recall you saying you had M49Bs, and I believe the FLEA 49 is the self biasing cathode C circuit, which sound distinctly different.
studio info
They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.
"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher
"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
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| Re: (M49) Mike Lovers- Unite!!! [message #436281 is a reply to message #351412 ] |
Fri, 24 July 2009 17:26 |
Plush
Messages: 261
Registered: April 2004
Location: Chicago |
Active Member |
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My thanks to Klaus, David and J.J.--
Doubters unite!
I am simply using these mics (real 49s, real 50s and a FLEA 49) to make recordings so I am not building them, reconditioning them or modifying them. My thanks to you all who have commented on what I should listen for.
Also, since I am recording with the mics differences in sound between them are less consequential for me than if I was seeking to match a "replica" with a real 49 or one olden 49 with another olden 49.
The 50s are the only ones I use as a main pair and even differences there are small enough not to bother me. ( I am quite particular, but not a handwringer.)
For J.J., perhaps the FLEA 49 copy got it just right. Thiersch capsule, FLEA made transformer combined with other components have yielded a super useable M49 sound. Could the people at FLEA be even more into copying and even more of a fetishist than we think?
What is one to say if in fact they got it just right?
Hudson Fair
Atelier HudSonic, Chicago
http://www.myspace.com/hudsonek
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| Re: (M49) Mike Lovers- Unite!!! [message #436379 is a reply to message #436281 ] |
Sat, 25 July 2009 12:02 |
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J.J. Blair
Messages: 12567
Registered: May 2004
Location: by the sea & sand |
Diamond Member |
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Hudson, fist off, what you said was "In using real Neumann M49 mics here and making comparisons with the FLEA 49 I have, I find them so similar as to be of no consequence in choosing for vocals, trumpet or other classic use for a M49."
Now, if you have M49Bs, you are going to have either Berlin M7s or K47s in them. If they are M7s, I guarantee you that the difference in sound of a 50 year old M7 compared to a Thiersch is indeed consequential. I also know for a fact that the Thiersch M7 sounds very different from a K47 of any era, having done that test recently.
Which version of the transformer did he build? And the circuit ... from the looks of the circuit in Oli's picture, I don't think he really attempted to "get it right."
I'm not saying that they don't sound good, or sound M49-ish, but I am skeptical of your claim that the differences are inconsequential, and agree with David that perhaps you have not used them in a capacity that will indeed demonstrate the difference in a consequential way.
studio info
They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.
"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher
"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
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| Re: (M49) Mike Lovers- Unite!!! [message #436387 is a reply to message #351412 ] |
Sat, 25 July 2009 13:07 |
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Oliver Archut
Messages: 1331
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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Hello J.J.,
the picture shows a kit that Milos sold empty and the owner build it up. I was contact to investigate the noise and after ruling everything else out, the plexi dome was the issue of the noise.
It could not be cleaned with Alcohol so I used an NOS Neumann one and see the crackling went away. The remaining high noise floor reduced after lifting the high impedance resistor.
Plush, as I said I admire Milos for trying to recreate some 50 year old parts, but the ones I had here are not identical.
You claim that it is a Thiersch capsule, I had several Milos M7s here and they are only skinned by Mr. Thiersch and thats all, not a Thiersch made backplate at all.
The backplate is done somewhere and not identical in dimensions, nor surface treatment.
M50s? You talking about 50s or M50a's?
If your Milos M49 clone works for your applications, that great and you should be proud of your microphone. If you think it sounds the same to whatever M49 you had, that is fine too.
But my statement is that neither of the plastic parts I had here are an faithful or identical reproduction with reference to function.
Not everything has to be historical correct, if it works the same, but at least it should sound or measure the same.
After Peter D asked for some advise I offered my findings, maybe Milos changed the parts, maybe Peters noise issue is something else.
But even if I repeat myself, the units/parts I had here could not be be used as direct replacements, same as the capsule.
Best regards,
Oliver Archut
www.tab-funkenwerk.com
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| Re: (M49) Mike Lovers- Unite!!! [message #436389 is a reply to message #436379 ] |
Sat, 25 July 2009 13:28 |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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| J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 25 July 2009 10:02 |
(...)Now, if you have M49Bs, you are going to have either Berlin M7s or K47s in them.
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J.J.,
To slightly correct a couple of your statements:
There are virtually no M49b with M7 capsules (I have seen only 2) as the 'b' model came out the same year the M7 was discontinued.
And also: quite a few M49b don't yet have the later M49b/c 'c' cathode biasing circuit. That circuit was not introduced until late 1963. However, almost all M49b that came in for servicing after 1963 were converted by Neumann Service to the 'c' circuitry.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: (M49) Mike Lovers- Unite!!! [message #436409 is a reply to message #436392 ] |
Sat, 25 July 2009 18:14 |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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The difference between the M49 and M49 b is:
1. low cut filter
2. higher NFB
3. new transformer (designated "BV11")
4. change of operating point for the AC701
None of these features were found in M49 before 1958.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: (M49) Mike Lovers- Unite!!! [message #436410 is a reply to message #436409 ] |
Sat, 25 July 2009 18:30 |
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J.J. Blair
Messages: 12567
Registered: May 2004
Location: by the sea & sand |
Diamond Member |
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Oli, thanks for that clarification. I'd love to see the inside of Plush's mics, in that case.
Klaus, the M49B, where the picture of the electronics I posted earlier in this thread, came equipped with M7s. I bought them form the original owner, and he got them from Gotham. I even have his original packing slip that Gotham included.
I was not aware that my two mics were in the minority. These are serial number 2003 and 2005. By some chance, somebody sent me 2007, not knowing about my pair, and it was also equipped with a M7, but his mic had been worked on, and I can't vouch for its originality. Perhaps these can be considered "transition models"?
Thank you for making me aware of the infrequency of which this combination is found.
studio info
They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.
"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher
"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
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| Re: (M49) Mike Lovers- Unite!!! [message #436531 is a reply to message #436427 ] |
Sun, 26 July 2009 17:07 |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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As per Neumann's model revision, documented in schematics, white papers, and my empirical knowledge:
Official introduction of "M49b" in 1958, with:
* new 'BV11' transformer,
* circuit now with low cut (5 megΩ NFB);
* AC701 current draw increased from .45mA to .73mA,
* high end cut shunt cap increased from 150 pf to 600 pf,
and a few minor other things, like a 'cardioid only' switch.
As to J.J.'s M7 found in his M49b: When Gotham took over in 1958, the first thing they shafted was the M7. There were of course transition-M49 still equipped with M7 (for example, I have records of M49b #1496 w/M7 that was manufactured Jan. 1958.)
Your 2000+ serial numbers put your M49b mics well within the K47-era (post ca. 1960), so I am at a loss to explain how you ended up with M7s in those mics.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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