Home » R/E/P » Fletcher » pres..... is it just all in our heads?
| pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #309376] |
Sat, 26 January 2008 16:49  |
i dig music
Messages: 323
Registered: April 2004 |
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we finally have acoustic treatment in place for our new live room, and we are very happy with the vibe and tone.
over the years we have bought and sold many high-end to mid-level pres in search of great sound. for the hell of it, we fired up a borrowed yamaha 03d with some lawson and blue mics on drums. we also used a little eq and dynamics from the board.
as we were listening to playback the question became,
what the hell is wrong with how that sounds?
granted, the room is a new environment that we have not heard up until that point, but it made me wonder if all this "mic pre" lust is just plain BS?
R. Steele
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #309388 is a reply to message #309379 ] |
Sat, 26 January 2008 17:47  |
i dig music
Messages: 323
Registered: April 2004 |
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| Chad Sims wrote on Sat, 26 January 2008 17:16 |
Or you may have just proved to yourself that good acoustics are more important than great mic pres.
Just a thought.
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well,
yes....... but also pretty obvious and implied within the conclusion. plus good drummer and mics.
never the less, it's clear the spinning wheel must stop at some point.
R. Steele
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #309398 is a reply to message #309376 ] |
Sat, 26 January 2008 18:25 |
 Halfway Competent
Messages: 71
Registered: December 2007 |
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I've sometimes wondered the same thing... Though I hear a difference in tone quality between a typical mixer pre and a higher-end outboard pre, I don't know where we find the point of diminishing returns.
I once compared a Mackie XDR pre to a DBX 586 ("silver series" channel strip). My test was pretty basic. I spoke into an Audio Technica 4050, listening on a set of cans. Then I plugged the mic into the DBX pre, ran that pre thru line inputs on the Mackie board, and listened. I immediately noticed that the DBX pre was brighter (and yes, I level-matched the two, made sure the EQ/comp was out, etc). I preferred its sound to that of the Mackie pre, but that was a matter of my opinion. (FWIW, I use a Mackie Onyx board for doing small acoustic live shows, and I have no complaints about its preamps.)
Also, as a rule, I hate the AKG 414 (sorry to fans out there of the 414... Just not for me). Its tone has always sounded dull to me. However, I mixed a recording that had been tracked with a 414 on voice. It sounded fantastic. I found out that it had been jacked into an Avalon preamp. When I had been hearing the 414 prior to that, it was plugged into Mackie and Yamaha pres. I also found out that, in the Josh Groban Live concert, the Yamaha grand piano had been miked with a pair of 414's attached to Neve pres. The piano sounded beautiful.
I recorded a soprano vocalist with an audio-technica 4033 (which I love), plugged into a Digi-001 preamp. Something about the sound bothered me. It sounded kinda thin and gritty. That was the only time that mic had ever sounded bad (and it wasn't the singer; she was amazing). It turns out the Digi-001 was infamous for having crappy preamps. Even the digidesign rep admitted this.
I guess in short... The quality of a preamp does make a difference. I'm quick to call bullshit on what seems like snake oil ($1,000 power cable, anyone?), but I've certainly found that putting a different preamp on the end of a mic alters (if only subtly) the way it sounds.
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #309453 is a reply to message #309376 ] |
Sat, 26 January 2008 23:44 |
scottoliphant
Messages: 676
Registered: November 2005
Location: austin, texas |
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| i dig music wrote on Sat, 26 January 2008 16:49 |
what the hell is wrong with how that sounds?
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probably nothing. there's most likely a graph somewhere showing the decline in musicianship / studio readiness / instrument quality vs the rising amount of gear lust to polish the proverbial turd. I recorded an incredible jazz band a few years ago through an odd assortment of mics, into my old soundcraft 200 board, and i realized right then that the gear might be the smallest part of the entire equation. you can spend thousands upon thousands on pres and gear (which i have since) but it costs almost nothing to learn how to tune a drum kit (other than time). i'm not saying gear doesn't matter, just that sometimes we lose sight of the source.
Scott Oliphant
http://www.ohmrecordingfacility.com/
http://www.myspace.com/ohmrecordingfacilty
http://www.myspace.com/ourlittlegreenhouse
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #309463 is a reply to message #309376 ] |
Sun, 27 January 2008 00:59 |
Pinche Gringo
Messages: 1
Registered: January 2008
Location: Terlingua, TX |
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I for one think the pres are as important as any other factor in a studio with exception of the quality of monitors. Of course, great songs, good band, tuned equipment, yes.. ,however, that being said:
I remember spending my first big $$$ for an API 3124, after years of dicking around with the lower end pres: Meek, PreSonus, VLZs, etc.
I had been working real hard getting a signal just right in a Meek channel box, pre->Comp->EQ, reading through the little green manual. When the 3124 arrived, it blew away anything I tried on the Meek, just the single 312.
What my pres: 312s, TG2, GTQ, Summit, 512b provide is a tightening, a focus to a signal that the low end pres will not provide. When it came time to mix tracks from low end pres, it was hard to sort, too cloudy, not tight. WIth my present pres, all kinds of sonic room.
btw: pres are even more important than mics: well, don't buy crap mics! but when I purchase a new higher end pre with a different sound/palette/color than my others, its like I get more mics. ...and the opposite is not true.
My next pre is either the Germ, the Biz or the Pacifica. My 2 cents. 
Viva Los Pinche Gringos del Norte!
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #309464 is a reply to message #309376 ] |
Sun, 27 January 2008 01:18 |
PaulyD
Messages: 664
Registered: August 2004
Location: Northern California |
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I've read more than once from people whose opinions I regard that say Yamaha makes a pretty darn good mic pre. So maybe that Yamaha isn't as modest of a device as you think.
fwiw, I could hardly believe my ears the first time I tried my Buzz Audio MA-2.2 with the Sowter balancing transformer. It trampled any mic pre I'd owned up to that point.
Of course, the source, the mic, the room, the A/D converter, the recording level, etc, all play a role as well. Quality + acquired skill has a synergistic effect.
Paul
Sceptre - Katie Jane
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #309601 is a reply to message #309376 ] |
Sun, 27 January 2008 16:58 |
Duhduh
Messages: 75
Registered: October 2004
Location: Costa Mesa, CA |
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Well, what would you rather have?
A SM-57 through a Neve/API/etc?
Or a U47 through a Mackie/Behringer?
"Hey, I'm not Jesus Christ, I can't turn water into wine. The best I can do is turn beer into urine." - Zakk Wylde
Costa Mesa, CA
about:blank
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #309644 is a reply to message #309376 ] |
Sun, 27 January 2008 19:23 |
i dig music
Messages: 323
Registered: April 2004 |
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in the early 90's my room had a soundworkshop series 34c and mci 24 trk. at the time, in our mic collection, we had 2 u47s, 2 u67s, 1 km56, 1 m49, 3 87's and a bunch of 57s and other dynamics. we never spoke in terms of pres, just in terms of consoles, rooms and mics. there were certain rooms in town where we would only cut strings, or a certain piano at a particular studio. it was all about the room, player and mic.
and....
back then i could give a shit about what the console was unless i wanted "luxury" ssl automation and recall when mixing.
now a days with all the "tech advancements", it's funny how many steps backwards you have to take to move forward utilizing "state of the art" gear, with hopes of emulating or recreating the past.
honestly,
beyond easy cut and paste, recall and storage, it's really been a big waste of time for many. looking at wave forms and eq curves 5k, 10k, 320 down-2.5db. with a 50 hz boost for "sub air"?
WTF.......red, green, api, neve, tg, telefunken, blah blah blah.....
i use to twist knobs and make shit happen. i'm done with fucking 1 knob pres and latent plugs, they are the death of what we use to know as hi-fi stereophonic sound.
sorry for the rant.
R. Steele
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #309766 is a reply to message #309756 ] |
Mon, 28 January 2008 08:13 |
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| Brent Handy wrote on Mon, 28 January 2008 08:40 |
[No it is not in our heads. Try an original issue API 500 series pre and a Telefunken V72 up against a Mackie with an SM58. There is a HUUUUUUUGE difference.
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Just as there is a difference between a 57 and a U-47 through a lesser pre.
At all times, you are only as strong as your weakest link.
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #310975 is a reply to message #309376 ] |
Thu, 31 January 2008 15:56 |
kats
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2005 |
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Geez Fletcher, your making this sound like a tough racket...
Tony Katsabanis
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| Re: pres..... is it just all in our heads? [message #311160 is a reply to message #309376 ] |
Fri, 01 February 2008 10:48 |
Jim Williams
Messages: 462
Registered: May 2005
Location: beautiful carlsbad, CA |
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Mic pre's are like oats.
You can pay top dollar for fresh oats.
Or, you can save some money buying the oats that have already been through the horse.
Bottom line: Everything sounds great until you hear something better. Whether you bother to look for better is your decision.
Me mum said 90% of people are happy with crap, the 10% left over want something better. Do you?
I do agree that mic pre's have little to do with the sonics of modern pop/rock releases. Once it's all smashed and MP-3ed, who can tell? A Mackie can do just as well as API with this much manipulation.
Well designed mic pre's seem to have more benefit in acoustic/classical/roots music where details are to be captured faithfully and sonic manipulation is less applied. The differences are easily heard in such venues. Not so easy with a rock recording as the stringent requirements for accuracy are not needed, and often unwanted.
Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
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