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| Re: Untitled. [message #328235 is a reply to message #328213 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 12:45   |
 John Ivan
Messages: 2317
Registered: April 2004 |
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Well, Yes Barry!! That sums it up pretty well  .. I just wanted to be,, um,,, ah,, Clear?? {sorry}
Jessica,
When are you going to start your tour of Churches? You need to be the featured speaker at every church in the Country.
THIS is the Christian attitude that I respect and love.. And it is true that the word of Jesus is available to those who want to read it. I believe that many, MANY Christians want only to leave the world better than they found it. I think this is true of MOST people of all Faiths, and most people who have no faith in a God at all. It seems to me that sometimes people see things in themselves and project these items onto other people.
I can state {as can others}, that I am a better person than I was 5 years ago. I'm more approachable, not as angry, I don't drink very often and when I do, I don't hurt myself. I've come to see this crazy music thing as an amazing gift instead of being pissed off at it all the time, I'm trying to be a better Father and Husband by actually taking the time to SHOW them how much I love them and the list could go on.. I am still somewhat broken though. I believe in the human spirit. I think that much of our 'lot in life' is a choice. { but not All for sure}. This means I can choose to be a better man than I am right now..
If there is a God working in the background helping me do this, than I have no problem with that. But I certainly can not point to anything that would indicate His/Her presence. The Documents we have regarding Gods presence are not enough for me..
I know it may seem like the easy way out, but it's the truth! I don't completely dismiss the idea that there is a great loving power. But I don't claim to know that there is either. Also, I don't make moral judgments about people bases on whether they have faith in something they can't prove.. It's asking a lot of our fellow Humans. I think.
Ivan..................
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| Re: Untitled. [message #328240 is a reply to message #328078 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 13:00 |
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J-Texas
Messages: 746
Registered: May 2007
Location: Dallas, TX |
Gold Member |
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| mgod wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 00:09 |
| J-Texas wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 20:32 |
But Jesus is for the CHRIST-ians and one thing the Christians are called to do is minister to those who don't know Him.
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And why would Jesus be exclusively for the Christians? And why should the Christian assume anyone else doesn't know him, simply because they don't proclaim themselves as Christian? There may be people all around you who know Jesus intimately who can't be identified as Christian - in fact, there are.
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SEE POST ABOVE
| mgod wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 00:09 |
It seems to me that making the claim of being a true Christian is a very large personal undertaking...
DS
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Of course it is personal, at first. We are here to spread the good news.
Mathew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Jason Thompson
www.4141studios.com
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| Re: Untitled. [message #328241 is a reply to message #328218 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 13:03 |
John Ivan
Messages: 2317
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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| PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 13:20 |
| John Ivan wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 10:25 |
| PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 11:56 |
| John Ivan wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 21:54 |
Well, I guess that I can never have anything to do with a religion that concludes that an entire group of people need to ask for forgiveness for simply being who they are.
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But it's not who they really are. It's an alternate identity that they've chosen to believe.
That's not a self righteous statement as we all have different areas of our lives where 'the deceiver of the world' has won some battles.
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Sorry. Not only do I think this is wrong, but I find it to be rather disgusting.. How would you know? What is with all this crap about understanding who other people are? Why don't you ask them? Then when they answer your questions, instead of deciding that YOU know why they are Gay, listen to THEM explain why/how they are Gay.. I get my understanding of the Christian people I know directly from them. No one else. I take them at their word, as confusing as it is sometimes.
Please, what ever you do. Do NOT pretend to understand whether or not some "deceiver" is in my life, or anyone else's life.. You would have no idea. At all. Of any kind. What so ever.Under any circumstances.
Period.
Ivan.................
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How do you know if your house has been built square? Awfully hard to hang a door if the door frame is not sqaure, no? The answer is you use a tool called a 'square' to measure if the angles are in fact 90 degrees.
The same principle applies for whether or not are lives are true or "square" - we use a measuring tool to check. The measuring tool that we have is the revelation of perfect humanity in Jesus Christ and the word that was given to reveal the natural order.
If one is to know if there is deception, it's because the measuring tool says so.
But let's even take this out of the religious realm. Because in many ways it's not a religious issue, but a practical one.
My father has done personal / family counseling for many decades. He has had many, many gay people come to see him for help. In fact, his counseling services were quite popular among the gay community. He has also been connected with a number of other counselors / therapists / doctors who work with homosexual people.
While homosexuality is very complex - there are indeed reasons "why". None of these reasons are positive. The vast majority of homosexuals (with the exception of the 1% of them who are born with physical anomalies) have at the root of their 'acute sexual identity crisis' a bitterness rooted judgement. Because of this, they begin to believe a system of lies about themselves and take on this alternate identity. The lies are not always obvious to them, but may be obvious to observers. I'm talking about things like feelings of worthlessness, deserving of abuse, deserving of rejection, etc. So when I say that this is not who they really are, this is specifically what I am referring to. Because of the judgements, they believe these lies and out of that faith system adopt a new identity and life style. It's not the true selves that they are living out of, it's the self that's been transformed by the lies of worthlessness, rejection, abuse, etc.
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Well, with all due respect, I find this set of statements to be sad and frightening. Brother, I know some Gay people. A Lot of Gay people. As it turns out, I was in a couple of bands that the Gay community really liked a lot and while we got to know these people out in the masses {the general clubs and venues}, they hired us to play many a wacky private party.. All I can say is that there was nothing complicated about it. When I have romantic feelings about my fellow Humans, they are always of the opposite sex. When they have these feelings, they are for the same sex.
Many, if not most of these people, both male and female are at least as well adjusted as I am and really are very happy people. Productive, kind, funny smart people, with an amazing fashion sense {Brian, if you pop in , that was for you!!}
Is there any chance that you folks could STOP trying to "help" these people?? Please??!!??
Ivan....................
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| Re: Untitled. [message #328258 is a reply to message #328241 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 13:25 |
PookyNMR
Messages: 1424
Registered: April 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
Platinum Member |
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| John Ivan wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 12:03 |
All I can say is that there was nothing complicated about it. When I have romantic feelings about my fellow Humans, they are always of the opposite sex. When they have these feelings, they are for the same sex.
Many, if not most of these people, both male and female are at least as well adjusted as I am and really are very happy people. Productive, kind, funny smart people, with an amazing fashion sense {Brian, if you pop in , that was for you!!}
Is there any chance that you folks could STOP trying to "help" these people?? Please??!!??
Ivan....................
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We would stop helping them, but they keep coming to us desperate for help. Should we turn them away??
I've had many gay friends as well. Kind, funny, smart, productive. Lots of wonderful folks.
From the experience of those who work with gay people in a professional counseling / therapy / psychiatric situation (many of whom are not believers), while not obvious, there are underlying issues. It is complex, whether or not the untrained eye can see. You may choose to ignore such things and continue to be buddy-buddy. That is easy to do. But I'd think it foolish to deny the professional opinion of those in the field.
My original point however - of which 'acute sexual identity crisis' is just one example - is that ALL people have the same basic problem. We all put our faith into some sort of lie and it leads us towards destructive behavior. For some that lie is about identity / sexual identity, for others it's a different issue.
Another example would be that of an abuse victim. Having been abused, you would think that they would know better than to hook up with someone who is abusive. But statistically speaking, we know that people who have been abused are most likely to end up in a situation with another abuser. Why is that? Same reason. They give into a lie, an alternate faith system, which guides their steps down that path. Until that deception is dealt with, there will continue to be a pattern of abuse.
In your post to Jessica, you mentioned a few behaviors of your own that you saw as destructive. Can you identify beliefs about yourself / others / life that changed which caused your behavior to change? Same concept.
Nathan Rousu
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| Re: Untitled. [message #328268 is a reply to message #328258 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 13:45 |
John Ivan
Messages: 2317
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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| PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 14:25 |
| John Ivan wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 12:03 |
All I can say is that there was nothing complicated about it. When I have romantic feelings about my fellow Humans, they are always of the opposite sex. When they have these feelings, they are for the same sex.
Many, if not most of these people, both male and female are at least as well adjusted as I am and really are very happy people. Productive, kind, funny smart people, with an amazing fashion sense {Brian, if you pop in , that was for you!!}
Is there any chance that you folks could STOP trying to "help" these people?? Please??!!??
Ivan....................
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We would stop helping them, but they keep coming to us desperate for help. Should we turn them away??
I've had many gay friends as well. Kind, funny, smart, productive. Lots of wonderful folks.
From the experience of those who work with gay people in a professional counseling / therapy / psychiatric situation (many of whom are not believers), while not obvious, there are underlying issues. It is complex, whether or not the untrained eye can see. You may choose to ignore such things and continue to be buddy-buddy. That is easy to do. But I'd think it foolish to deny the professional opinion of those in the field.
My original point however - of which 'acute sexual identity crisis' is just one example - is that ALL people have the same basic problem. We all put our faith into some sort of lie and it leads us towards destructive behavior. For some that lie is about identity / sexual identity, for others it's a different issue.
Another example would be that of an abuse victim. Having been abused, you would think that they would know better than to hook up with someone who is abusive. But statistically speaking, we know that people who have been abused are most likely to end up in a situation with another abuser. Why is that? Same reason. They give into a lie, an alternate faith system, which guides their steps down that path. Until that deception is dealt with, there will continue to be a pattern of abuse.
In your post to Jessica, you mentioned a few behaviors of your own that you saw as destructive. Can you identify beliefs about yourself / others / life that changed which caused your behavior to change? Same concept.
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I'll ignore the buddy buddy comment and cut to the chase.. I'll bet the overwhelming majority of mental health professionals believe that what you and your Father are proposing is nonsense. These people come to you as very troubled people and you help them decide that their Gayness is their problem.. I've seen this before, up close. "We'll have you diving into girls head first in NO TIME"..
I wont comment further on this subject..
Thanks..
Ivan.................
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| Re: Untitled. [message #328271 is a reply to message #328213 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 13:48 |
PookyNMR
Messages: 1424
Registered: April 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
Platinum Member |
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| Jessica A. Engle wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 11:04 |
someone suggested to me recently via PM that the problem with Christians is that they try to change people, even if it is clear the people don't want to change. This may be ture, but that's not what Christians are instructed to do. Not at all.
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One verse that comes to mind off the top of my head:
Col 1:24-28, specifically v.28 "... teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ."
Theologians argue that part of our Kingdom mission is to join Jesus in his mission - the transformation of the world.
Change is part of our mandate.
I think, however, that the real issue is that this attempt to try to change is often done without love. Without real love, we get people doing tactless things, often manipulating and using other carnal and even evil methods to try and force change. Not only is that stuff offensive, but people can recognize the absence of love, which is the very thing that they are looking for. For sure we are called to be proclaimers, and through that proclamation we will see change. But change indeed is part of the mandate. What is the point if nothing is going to change?
Nathan Rousu
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| Re: Untitled. [message #328275 is a reply to message #328268 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 13:54 |
PookyNMR
Messages: 1424
Registered: April 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
Platinum Member |
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| John Ivan wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 12:45 |
'll ignore the buddy buddy comment and cut to the chase.. I'll bet the overwhelming majority of mental health professionals believe that what you and your Father are proposing is nonsense. These people come to you as very troubled people and you help them decide that their Gayness is their problem.. I've seen this before, up close. "We'll have you diving into girls head first in NO TIME"..
I wont comment further on this subject..
Thanks..
Ivan.................
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The buddy-buddy comment was meant in the sense of being friends. There was no negative connotation intended. If you took it as such, my apologies.
While this issue is very divisive in the professional community, there are plenty of folks who actually work with lots of homosexuals (in a non-religious context) and hold a similar position to what I've stated.
The funny thing is when the come for help, it's often not about 'gay-ness' or being gay. It's about other deeper underlying issues. It just so happens that if and when significant healing comes to some deep and foundational areas a person's life, that their behaviors and tendencies change.
Nathan Rousu
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| Re: Untitled. [message #328311 is a reply to message #328271 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 16:03 |
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| PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 11:48 |
| Jessica A. Engle wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 11:04 |
someone suggested to me recently via PM that the problem with Christians is that they try to change people, even if it is clear the people don't want to change. This may be ture, but that's not what Christians are instructed to do. Not at all.
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One verse that comes to mind off the top of my head:
Col 1:24-28, specifically v.28 "... teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ."
Theologians argue that part of our Kingdom mission is to join Jesus in his mission - the transformation of the world.
Change is part of our mandate.
I think, however, that the real issue is that this attempt to try to change is often done without love. Without real love, we get people doing tactless things, often manipulating and using other carnal and even evil methods to try and force change. Not only is that stuff offensive, but people can recognize the absence of love, which is the very thing that they are looking for. For sure we are called to be proclaimers, and through that proclamation we will see change. But change indeed is part of the mandate. What is the point if nothing is going to change?
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Oooh boy.
Sorry to step in, but, here's a few pointers, please follow along with the 4 points I have indicated in colors:
1. Please, when Quoting the Bible, it is best not to quote out of context. This clearly shows you are intending to use words from the Bible to further your argument. This is a no-no. it is not an educated, nor polite way of getting your point across. please quote the complete passage, so that readers may understand why you choose the quote, and be able to understand you better. This is a classic situation that is unfortunately all over the media. Please don't lower yourself by using this tactic.
2. Please, don' state "Theologians" without being more specific. Whom are these "Theologians" that you speak of, exactly? Please point us as to whom you are referring to, and some of their work that supports your position. Thanks.
3. Don't try to change others. I'm not going to bore you with Bible quotations, I'm sure you can read plenty of examples in there yourself. Mostly, when the Bible speaks of change, it is for oneself. Including the words of Jesus.
4. When you state "Mandate", exactly where do you get this from? Please, be specific. In your position you are trying to support changing others to your view. This is rather unintelligent, obtrusive, and goes against the Word of God.
I am sure you'll find other quotes and things to refute my points. Go ahead and try.
Cheers
You, Flock of Seagulls, know why we're here?
Nick Sevilla
www.nicksevilla.com
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| Re: Untitled. [message #328316 is a reply to message #328128 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 16:23 |
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J-Texas
Messages: 746
Registered: May 2007
Location: Dallas, TX |
Gold Member |
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| mgod wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 08:30 |
There's plenty of evidence that the NT has been deliberately altered over the years Nick. Read Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" for more on this.
However, those who are already convinced of its inerrancy will discount the messengers and so their message, as I'm sure our friend Nathan is about to tell you. There are other interpretations as well, among them that since the big guy is all powerful, nothing of importance can be changed since he controls all, or that maybe its a change he wanted. What seems inarguable to me, although the minute you say something like that you're asking for trouble, is that the interpretation has changed mightily over the years, and the meaning of the instruction.
There's a lot of debate about the changing of meaning at the Council of Nicea, when some think Rome co-opted the movement. Others see the hand of you know who in it.
DS
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This is from the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry:
Hasn't the Bible been rewritten so many times that we can't trust it anymore?
This is a common misconception. Some people think that the Bible was written in one language, translated to another language, then translated into yet another and so on until it was finally translated into the English. The complaint is that since it was rewritten so many times in different languages throughout history, it must have become corrupted . The "telephone" analogy is often used as an illustration. It goes like this. One person tells another person a sentence who then tells another person, who tells yet another, and so on and so on until the last person hears a sentence that has little or nothing to do with the original one. The only problem with this analogy is that it doesn't fit the Bible at all.
The fact is that the Bible has not been rewritten. Take the New Testament, for example. The disciples of Jesus wrote the New Testament in Greek and though we do not have the original documents, we do have around 6,000 copies of the Greek manuscripts that were made very close to the time of the originals. These various manuscripts, or copies, agree with each other to almost 100 percent accuracy. Statistically, the New Testament is 99.5% textually pure. That means that there is only 1/2 of 1% of of all the copies that do not agree with each other perfectly. But, if you take that 1/2 of 1% and examine it, you find that the majority of the "problems" are nothing more than spelling errors and very minor word alterations. For example, instead of saying Jesus, a variation might be "Jesus Christ." So the actual amount of textual variation of any concern is extremely low. Therefore, we can say that we have a remarkably accurate compilation of the original documents.
So when that we translate the Bible, we do not translate from a translation of a translation of a translation. We translate from the original language into our language. It is a one step process and not a series of steps that can lead to corruption. It is one translation step from the original to the English or to whatever language a person needs to read it in. So we translate into Spanish from the same Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. Likewise we translate into the German from those same Greek and Hebrew manuscripts as well. This is how it is done for each and every language we translate the Bible into. We do not translate from the original languages to the English, to the Spanish, and then to the German. It is from the original languages to the English, or into the Spanish, or into the German. Therefore, the translations are very accurate and trustworthy in regards to what the Bible originally said.
New Testament
Written: 1st Cent. A.D. (50-100 A.D.)
Earliest Copy: 2nd Cent. A.D. (c. 130 A.D.)
Approx time between orig and copy: less than 100 years
No. of copies: 5600
Accuracy of copies: 99.5%
Source: 1) Christian Apologetics, by Norman Geisler, 1976, p. 307; 2) the article "Archaeology and History attest to the Reliability of the Bible," by Richard M. Fales, Ph.D., in The Evidence Bible, Compiled by Ray Comfort, Bridge-Logos Publishers, Gainesville, FL, 2001, p. 163; and 3) A Ready Defense, by Josh Mcdowell, 1993, p. 45.
Jason Thompson
www.4141studios.com
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| Re: Untitled. [message #328326 is a reply to message #328236 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 16:49 |
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Barry Hufker
Messages: 5523
Registered: October 2004
Location: between heaven and hell |
Platinum Member |
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| J-Texas wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 12:51 |
| Barry Hufker wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 00:03 |
Jesus is not just for Christians. He is for all who believe in his saving power and grace.
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I can't even continue reading your post, I'm so confused about this.
Isn't that who the Christians were? I mean REAL Christians who followed His teachings after he died through the apostles?
Come on man. Christ is for the Christians. The splintering of religion after that point... that's the work of men.
The Merriam Webster FIRST definition of "Christian":
one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.
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If you read the story I paraphrased I'd hope the meaning would be clear. Essentially the Apostles knew all the Christians at this time as it was a very small group. So they were amazed when they found other people who could do what they could do. Christ said in essence, even if you don't know these people they are doing my work.
So. The Christians weren't called Christians until the term first appeared in Antioch. So if a person has the faith but doesn't know the particular term of Christian does that keep them from being saved? And if the Christians weren't called Christian until Antioch, does it mean they weren't saved before then?
http://www.hufkerrecording.com
Torture “is basically subject to perception,” CIA counterterrorism lawyer Jonathan Fredman told a group of military and intelligence officials gathered at the U.S.-run detention camp in Cuba on Oct. 2, 2002, according to minutes of the meeting. “If the detainee dies, you’re doing it wrong.”
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| Re: Untitled. [message #328328 is a reply to message #328311 ] |
Thu, 27 March 2008 17:12 |
PookyNMR
Messages: 1424
Registered: April 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
Platinum Member |
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| noeqplease wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 15:03 |
1. Please, when Quoting the Bible, it is best not to quote out of context. This clearly shows you are intending to use words from the Bible to further your argument. This is a no-no. it is not an educated, nor polite way of getting your point across. please quote the complete passage, so that readers may understand why you choose the quote, and be able to understand you better. This is a classic situation that is unfortunately all over the media. Please don't lower yourself by using this tactic.
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Anyone may look it up on Biblegateway.com if they so desire.
The smaller context of that section is about Paul's mission to the church. Paul is stating that he is laboring towards presenting every believer mature in Christ.
It is one thing to bring people to initial faith in Jesus. It is another to have them become mature in the faith. As an apostle, as a leader in the church, through his teaching he is working towards the maturing of believers. Maturing is a process of healthy change.
| noeqplease wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 15:03 |
2. Please, don' state "Theologians" without being more specific. Whom are these "Theologians" that you speak of, exactly? Please point us as to whom you are referring to, and some of their work that supports your position. Thanks.
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Sure. Let's start with N T Wright. He's a world renown theologian, considered by many as one of the best living theologians today. I've read a lot of his works, but the most recent in which I've seen him mention the participation with Jesus in the transformation of the world was in his book "For All God's Worth." Though, he mentions this Kingdom theme in most of his writings.
| noeqplease wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 15:03 |
3. Don't try to change others. I'm not going to bore you with Bible quotations, I'm sure you can read plenty of examples in there yourself. Mostly, when the Bible speaks of change, it is for oneself. Including the words of Jesus.
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Yes, change is the responsibility of the Holy Spirit and the choice individual. Our responsibility is the proclamation of Jesus, His Kingdom and the truth.
As I stated earlier, I don't advocate many of the views of 'changing people' or the aggressive techniques used by others to force change. But I do believe that we do have a responsibility to speak up and proclaim the truth. Faith and (from one perspective) repentance come from hearing.
My point is that while I agree that we are not to be aggressors, I don't agree that we are to do nothing to change our world. In that case, I believe that the pendulum has swung too far to the side of appeasement.
We are to speak up and to act when we see injustice. We are to care for those who are hungry. We are to help those who are in need. We are to speak up when we see an alcoholic friend destroying his life and that of his family. We are to advocate for the refugees in our cities who are being taken advantage of. We are to mentor (disciple) people and help them in the process of maturity in Jesus that they may experience his life and have it to the full.
| noeqplease wrote on Thu, 27 March 2008 15:03 |
4. When you state "Mandate", exactly where do you get this from? Please, be specific. In your position you are trying to support changing others to your view. This is rather unintelligent, obtrusive, and goes against the Word of God.
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When referring to the 'mandate', I'm referring to our Kingdom mission, which is indeed to change the world.
I am not supporting 'changing others' in perhaps the same way that you are imagining. I believe change will come as we engage Jesus and his Kingdom.
Quite possibly, I've over stated my point to Jessica. I apologize - too much coffee. But I don't agree that we're not involved in the process of change in individuals lives. And I also believe that we are instructed to be involved in the lives of others in positive ways as we express Jesus and His Kingdom. In doing so, we will be agents of change.
EDIT:
Having thought about this for a few more minutes a few more thoughts came to mind.
Are Christians to call people to repentance? Repentance means literally to change - to change your thinking and actions.
The difference is - which Jesus modeled - is that repentance is always in invitation with a promise attached. Repent - change your thinking and your actions - and the Kingdom of God will come upon you.
I think a lot of the bitter sentiment come from the fact that when many Christians have called others to 'repentance' that it was not an invitation with a promise. It was forceful, fear filled coercion, sometimes manipulative, etc.
Nathan Rousu
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