Home » R/E/P » Reason In Audio » DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #60870 is a reply to message #60868 ] |
Sat, 23 April 2005 15:13   |
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 Tomas Danko
Messages: 3721
Registered: May 2004
Location: Stockholm, Sweden |
Platinum Member |
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| Keyplayer wrote on Sat, 23 April 2005 21:04 |
With all the debate over the supeior ease of automation in the DAW vrs that of most mixing consoles, I was wondering if anybody was actually using their DAW like a tape deck/editor and mixing from their consoles to a mixdown deck or even back to a stereo or 6 stem tracks on their DAW?
I'm pretty sure those of you with access to Neve's, API's, SSL's etc are doing just that. But for those running in the "Mid-Line" (I.E. DM2K, R-100, Soundcraft Ghost etc.) are you doing this or letting the DAW do all the work and having your desk just act as a router?
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I went back to analog mixing with outboard after having done the ITB-thing (first software only, later with a digital console + software) and some hybrid methods in between. Not only is it way more fun, again, but it sounds better most of the time. As far as I'm concerned, I'm getting a lot of the mix "for free" just by staying in the analog domain. With all-digital, I had to put it in from the get-go otherwise I didn't end up with that much weirdness to "gel" the mix in the end.
For whatever harm my DAC's are doing to the audio, my console is more than making up for it in mojo.
Sincerely,
Tomas Danko
Ps. My console is an Allen & Heath Saber 32/16/16 LBGPG with MIDI-mute.
"T(Z)= (n1+n2*Z^-1+n2*Z^-2)/(1+d1*z^-1+d2*z^-2)" - Mr. Dan Lavry
"Shaw baa laa raaw, sidle' yaa doot in dee splaa" . Mr Shooby Taylor
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #60929 is a reply to message #60868 ] |
Sat, 23 April 2005 22:51 |
bushwick
Messages: 538
Registered: January 2005
Location: brooklyn, ny |
Gold Member |
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I have a Allen & Heath that is for all purposes just the shell of it original self, having been completey redesigned with a new master section, summing amps, grounding...
ITB does not hold a candle to outboard mixes from my standpoint and I even use some outboard gear inserted in the some AD-8000 channels I reserve for that purpose and don't feel like I am suffereing in great loss in almost any case with that extra DA-AD cconversion. I putting a BA6A on a snare sometimes is just what you need and there is nothing that I can do ITB to do that. I automate my volumes and some plugs in PT and do some manual automation on my console for Aux riding and sub-mix fader rides and I am cool with that and get some killer results. We just got our first shiny record so things can't be that bad!!!
I will say that a board that doesn't sound good isn't going to help matters. Some mid level boards that you are describing might not sound good and owing the the mostly 5532 based designs in that category you can have mixed results. You have to learn what each of these boards are really doing to your audio when you are pumping a hot mix through them. Some boards in the mid-level do not regulate power to each channel and when you are slamming signal to all the channels, there is some debate as to distortion arising as a result of the power suck from the main supply rails. As far as I'm concerned, there is no debate there. Also, none of them clip nicely, or have the robustness in sound that the discrete counterparts can have - I learned this first hand with the overhaul of my board which was completed in steps - so I have been able to hear the change in the sound of the board in stages. But again, even without clipping individual channels you may feel like your mix is caving the board in. In these cases, it is better to leave yourself some headroom, not push the board to hard and I think you can wind up with a clean potent sound.
As an aside, Thomas, the master section on your Saber can be made much better and the noise floor can be dropped quite a bit. Of all the mods that were done, the master section made the most improvement (so did raising the SN ratio 30db in a worst case scenario!!!). Look at the schematics - poor grounding layout and they even ground the audio to the chassis on every single card in the board.....big no no. PM me if you are interested.
-josh
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #61008 is a reply to message #60868 ] |
Sun, 24 April 2005 11:07 |
Nathan Eldred
Messages: 145
Registered: April 2004
Location: Central Florida |
Active Member |
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I'm mixing outside of the box on a real console. I can't get anywhere near the same results ITB (or on a digital console, same thing to my ears) as out. Not to mention I'm using 2" 16 track now, but I have no hesitation in tracking basics to the 2" and dumping into Samplitude via Lavrys. I'm still @ 48k and it sounds incredible. I'm not losing that much, and it's still light years ahead of the digital with absoultely no extra effort. So between tape and analog console, the sonics are very over the top in a good way. But the computer is there for ease of comping, editing, duplicating, time aligning, adding a funky effect on one word or note when the client requests it, yada yada.
Nathan Eldred
The Store:
AtlasProAudio.com
The Studio:
AtlasRecording.com
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #61028 is a reply to message #60868 ] |
Sun, 24 April 2005 13:04 |
kbshearer
Messages: 19
Registered: October 2004
Location: Sacramento, Ca |
Member |
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I've got to echo everyone else's repsonse. I track to 2" when the project allows and then bounce to a hard drive. I can't stand the sound of mixing in the box. I run everything back into an 80b,while using the automation in the DAW. Until something drastic changes, I am much happier with the sound of analog summing.
Kirt Shearer
Paradise Studios
www.paradisestudios.net
Kirt Shearer
Paradise Studios
Sacramento, Ca
www.paradisestudios.net
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #61162 is a reply to message #60868 ] |
Mon, 25 April 2005 02:29 |
RMoore
Messages: 3234
Registered: May 2004
Location: Netherlands (ex-Vancouver... |
Platinum Member |
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More and more working on the DAW I find but always mixing on a desk (Old Trident with 'issues') and (mostly, like 99%) running stems to analog multitrack and mixing from the tape machine.
Also using outboard FX, limiters etc.
Will have automation, submixing, edits obviously & some occasional plugs etc happening on the stems going to analog.
When I 1st got the DAW I did do some ITB action but discovered the results I was getting, while 'ok' weren't all that great sonically compared to the OTB vibe.
I'll never forget the ITB mixes went out on a commercial release & I saw later on a (genre-specific) music forum some, I assumed, college student writing about the release eg: 'kinda cool project but what happened to the SOUND? Something changed, it seems all digital'...or to that effect..
Anyway, I was pretty amazed that basically an 'end consumer' could hear the diff between a&b...and they were right too!
http://www.twilightcircus.com
http://www.myspace.com/twilightcircus
By the end of today, another day is gone forever. You will never get it back.
We must never let up for a second. Work harder at every single thing - Terry Manning
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #62220 is a reply to message #60868 ] |
Thu, 28 April 2005 20:55 |
studentcouncil
Messages: 9
Registered: June 2004 |
Member |
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I'm mixing on my Studer 901 for clients who appreciate the difference, and for myself. For clients who just want it quick, I work ITB. After going thru my mid-90's 02R phase, the increase in midrange resolution (not to mention fader/panpot resolution), etc., that the Studer provides was immediately and dramatically apparent. You can also hit the buses with as much as you like and it never sounds saturated.
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #62306 is a reply to message #60868 ] |
Fri, 29 April 2005 07:32 |
ryst
Messages: 41
Registered: February 2005
Location: Atlanta |
Member |
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I have a question. If I can't afford large format mixing console at this time but want to start mixing OTB, would a small format console from A&H, Soundcraft, or Mackie be worth buying? Would I hear a difference (assuming I know what I am doing) between ITB and OTB with a console in the $1000 range? Right now I use DP with plug ins... Any advice would be great.
Nathan Schreier
"To obtain a man's opinion of you, make him mad."
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #62329 is a reply to message #60868 ] |
Fri, 29 April 2005 08:41 |
ted nightshade
Messages: 1272
Registered: April 2004
Location: Southern Oregon, US of A |
Platinum Member |
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I'm attracted to the Fulcrom idea. I haven't tried that box, but before it came out we were replacing the make-up amp of a custom mixer with a Manley mic pre.
It's a good investment to score at least one really good mic pre, and then you can use that with the Fulcrom to have a really high quality mixer- even a tube mixer, if you use a tube mic pre! Cool idea, thinks me.
Ted Nightshade aka Cowan
There's a sex industry too.
Or maybe you prefer home cookin'?
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #62411 is a reply to message #62306 ] |
Fri, 29 April 2005 13:38 |
Dave Peck
Messages: 61
Registered: March 2005
Location: S.F. bay area |
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| ryst wrote on Fri, 29 April 2005 13:32 |
I have a question. If I can't afford large format mixing console at this time but want to start mixing OTB, would a small format console from A&H, Soundcraft, or Mackie be worth buying? Would I hear a difference (assuming I know what I am doing) between ITB and OTB with a console in the $1000 range? Right now I use DP with plug ins... Any advice would be great.
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I dunno about $1000... you'll probably have trouble finding any desks with good audio performance in that range... I've been on the hunt for a 24ch analog desk with a simple feature set and really good specs for quite a while now. See this related thread: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/4298/8104/?SQ=0 a13da6e1063a3a1f82151bea285dae3
So far, the Neotek Elan II and the Trident Dream look like the closest to what I need (about $15,000), and the Speck Lilo may be a better choice for some folks who only need 16 channels (about half the cost). Something like a D&R Vision would work if you don't need to switch between tracking & mixdown (it doesn't have A/B line input switching).
But if you're not using the micpres or the EQ, you may be able to get good out-of-the-DAW results on a more affordable console.
For me, a lot of the benefit in recording to a DAW and mixing analog is in the ergonomics and the immediacy, which allows me to work a bit more creatively and, I dunno, musically(?) than trying to do the same mix in the box. I tend to use the DAW for editing the tracks and fixing things like the levels on those few pesky bass notes that jump way out in the mix, and then I can use the faders on the console strictly for creative decisions and on-the-fly level tweaks.
So the performance of the desk needs to be good, sure, but I'm not mixing analog strictly because I think 'analog sounds better'. For me, it allows me to do a better job, and THAT sounds better.
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #62412 is a reply to message #60868 ] |
Fri, 29 April 2005 13:42 |
Level
Messages: 1811
Registered: May 2004
Location: Mastering, as it should b... |
Platinum Member |
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| Quote: |
DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
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Daily.
http://balancedmastering.com
"Listen and Learn"
---Since 1975---
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #62431 is a reply to message #60868 ] |
Fri, 29 April 2005 14:40 |
mumbles
Messages: 253
Registered: November 2004
Location: Upstate NY |
Active Member |
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Hi there,
We are in the middle of CONSTRUCTING our own desk because we hate mixing on a DAW so much. I mixed in the CPU, using Digital Performer, for years. I mixed on a shitty little Mackie once and it was all over. Sure, it sounded like a Mackie (grainy, cartoonish), but I could see (hear) the potential.
We plan on using an HD recorder for tracking and mixing down to 2 on our Frankenstien board within a month or so, and I know that I'll never look back.
Automation is nice, but you have to choose your battles.
Seamus
Seamus McNulty
Collar City Sound
Troy, NY
518.225.0015
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