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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #91527 is a reply to message #91355 ] |
Tue, 20 September 2005 10:17   |
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 Denny W.
Messages: 567
Registered: August 2005
Location: Ohio |
Gold Member |
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| RKrizman wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 15:45 |
| Ronny wrote on Sun, 18 September 2005 22:43 |
[The point that I'm making is if the tracking and mix engineer is recording and mixing too low, he's not getting an accurate picture of where the final noise floor is going. If he peaks higher and mixes higher, he will hear more of the noise floor and will realize that he should have taken care of the noise "before" the tracking, not at the mastering stage. If I had a dime for every client that said, "wow, I didn't know that the guitar effects or 60 cycle hum sounded that noisy" until it went to mastering and had perceived gain processing, I'd be a dimondaire.
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Hey, I decide my playback level with my monitor volume control. I don't need to track something louder to hear it louder.
-R
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How loud the monitors are is not what I believe he was driving at. What I believe he is saying is that the relative level of the noise floor to source material will be greater if recording the signal at -5db vs -15db
My mic closet is more like a shoebox.......
Denny Wyss
Engineer - NicePear Productions
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #91583 is a reply to message #91531 ] |
Tue, 20 September 2005 13:42 |
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Ronny
Messages: 2739
Registered: April 2004
Location: Brunswick, Georgia |
Platinum Member |
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| RKrizman wrote on Tue, 20 September 2005 11:47 |
| Denny W. wrote on Tue, 20 September 2005 11:17 |
How loud the monitors are is not what I believe he was driving at. What I believe he is saying is that the relative level of the noise floor to source material will be greater if recording the signal at -5db vs -15db
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If he's referring to the noise from the source, then he is incorrect.
-R
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Yes, I'm referring to the noise floor of the source. I've already mentioned that it's not necessary to squeeze every bit out of a 24 bit ADC, like people used to say you had to do at 12 and 16 bit. The key is optimizing the analog side for the best floor before the ADC as the noise floor of just about all 24 bit ADC's is lower than the floor of mic pre's and much lower than the inherent noise of a quality microphone. Also, I must repeat that it's mainly an issue when perceived leveling is performed on the mastering grind. That's when tracking practices become most evident, because RMS is raised and crest factor is lowered at the final stage. One more thing, the gain that you monitor at will effect the perception of lows and highs differently from the mids (Fletcher-Munson). There can be a difference of plus or minus 5dB on the low and high frequencies and it's advisable to monitor at the same level when the material allows it. The recording newsgroups that I own and or moderate have 5,000 members and they often post tunes for reviews, opinions vary greatly as to boost the bass or attenuate the cymbals and the different opinions are relative to the not only the listening environment that each person has, but at what volume each person listens at. To get a more accurate picture of the mix, the reviewers would need to audition the samples at the same relative gain as the person that mixed it.
------Ronny Morris - Digitak Mastering------
---------http://digitakmastering.com---------
----------Powered By Experience-------------
-------------Driven To Perfection---------------
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #91608 is a reply to message #91168 ] |
Tue, 20 September 2005 16:21 |
raal
Messages: 16
Registered: November 2004 |
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| Bob Olhsson wrote on Sun, 18 September 2005 18:22 |
In a documentary you still don't know how loud or dynamic the music needs to be until the final mix happens against picture.
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thank you for your reply sir. that's actually the situation i'm in now. this is the final mix and i'm doing it against picture, but my question is more theoretical, as i mostly do music.
basically would like to know if TL meters are 100% believable. in other words, when i print a final mix coming from an analog source, can i print it hot as possible (making sure it doesn't clip), or should i be more conservative (say -2 to 6 db), regardless of what the meters say?
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My point is why guess? Unless you luck out and guess exactly right to a tenth of a dB., the end results will almost always be more distorted.
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not really looking for that last .1 dB, would leave that to the ME. i'm more looking for a ballpark high to shoot for (in dBs, not tenths of a dB), leaving the necessary room for the ME to do a proper job. the real question i guess is if oversampling meters in fact eliminate the 'guess' factor?
FWIW, since installing the TL meters (between each plug) i work at lower levels, and whether imagined or real, it seems things sound alot better, less processing is needed and it takes a shorter amount of time to get there.
thank you again mr. olhsson, frindle, katz and all others for your very generous and educational posts.
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #93278 is a reply to message #92923 ] |
Mon, 26 September 2005 22:46 |
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timrob
Messages: 131
Registered: September 2005
Location: Nashville, TN |
Active Member |
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| bobkatz wrote on Sun, 25 September 2005 21:19 |
| lukejs wrote on Sun, 25 September 2005 20:53 |
I've seen that many of you have decided to mix outside the box.... I have an Apogee AD16-x and am considering purchasing the DA16-x in order to mix on my Allen and Heath GS3000 recording console.... Should I go for it ?? Any of you heard anything about the quality of the Allen and Heath GS3000 console and would the expenditure on the DA converter be worth it ? I heard that only the best Analogue will beat digital... will this console suffice ? I appreciate any advice !! thanks, Luke
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I have a client who uses the Apogee AD16 and DA16 with his Soundcraft Ghost and gets excellent results. I can't imagine the Allen and Heath being worse than the Ghost... Neither one has much of a pedigree sonically. The key to my client's good mixes is his use of good outboard gear with the console along with good ears, of course, and relatively little use of the onboard EQ in the Ghost.
BK
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The last five records I've Mixed have been done on a Ghost.
Actually, the last album I did that was released was half Ghost and half API (The one at House of David that came from Record One). We actually mixed all the songs originally on the Ghost and then took our mixes to the API room and tweaked them a bit.
At Mastering we thought that the API mixes would likely be what we used. It wound up being half and half.
The main problem with the Ghost is headroom. It tends to splat on the peaks. Red lights on the Ghost are not pretty at all. So, I tend to use -16 as my reference when I work on those to make sure I can get good signal, but still be in the safety zone and not crap out the board. I worked with some Allen and Heath boards a few years ago and thought they sounded decent. Can't remember the model though.
Tim Roberts
Waterknot Music
Nashville
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Ours is not to understand.
Ours is just to record the band.
-Unknown
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #113368 is a reply to message #94483 ] |
Sun, 11 December 2005 21:22 |
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| button wrote on Sat, 01 October 2005 18:22 |
Recording digital and using analogue desks and processing to mix is a happy compromise ... a musical moment preserved for the consumer, >thanks< to digital mastering and delivery mediums.
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Well said.
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #114900 is a reply to message #60868 ] |
Sat, 17 December 2005 06:59 |
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In my opinion, there is much less chance in that case of digital harshness, than if you had it constantly peaking at '0,' and then had to push the fader down.
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #115235 is a reply to message #60868 ] |
Sun, 18 December 2005 19:11 |
maxim
Messages: 5050
Registered: February 2005 |
Platinum Member |
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as bob o said
try it
this simple manoeveur has made the biggest difference to the sound of my mixes
btw, you don't have to go as low as 20db when tracking
as long as peaks don't go higher than -6/3db, that's plenty of headroom
the higher bits do give more focus, imo
cheers,
max
sydney, oz
http://www.asylumdreams.com
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