Home » R/E/P » Reason In Audio » DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #64287 is a reply to message #64213 ] |
Sat, 07 May 2005 18:42   |
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 bobkatz
Messages: 2926
Registered: June 2004
Location: Orlando |
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| J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 07 May 2005 12:29 |
Bob, I thought there was some issue with digital headroom and/or ability to sum the full signals w/o degredation in real time when summing in the box? I'm a digital idiot, so I'm just asking. I don't know how any of it works. I just know which things sound better to me.
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Nope. Any way you measure it, digital summing is as close to perfect as you can get. The reasons you may prefer the analog mixer include distortion, noise, crosstalk, selective high frequency versus low frequency crosstalk, high frequency rolloff at 20 kHz, you name it.
All the "reputable" DAWs have tons of summing headroom (more than your analog board, to be exact!), zero crosstalk (which may be the reason why some people dislike it), zero leakage between channels, flat frequency response (which may be another reason why people dislike it), and it's not subject to the nonlinearities of converters. Add that up and.... well, that's what you get.
BK
There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #64382 is a reply to message #64186 ] |
Sun, 08 May 2005 05:19 |
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Tomas Danko
Messages: 3270
Registered: May 2004
Location: Stockholm, Sweden |
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| bobkatz wrote on Sat, 07 May 2005 14:57 |
| Tomas Danko wrote on Sat, 23 April 2005 16:13 |
For whatever harm my DAC's are doing to the audio, my console is more than making up for it in mojo.
Sincerely,
Tomas Danko
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I think the key word here is "mojo". Digital summing is technically nearly perfect. Analog summing is technically far from perfect. It MUST BE, by DEFINITION, the imperfections of the analog summing and the additional analog circuits that the signal goes through that are so attractive to many of us. I can live with that 
And let us remember that an API sounds different from a Dangerous Two Buss from a Soundcraft Ghost from an SSL 4000 (E or G?). So to generalize too much about the sound of "analog summing" is also a dangerous concept.
BK
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You know, I agree completely. I've been doing ITB mixing for years, and also been working with digital consoles for a long time. I do feel that with todays current digital technology, the summing etc is nearly perfect and an improvement over the analog grunge. Sometimes, this is also the preferred sound.
I would probably never buy a hybrid studio again, with an analog console, lots of outboard etc but using a DAW with multiple DAC's. It'd be ITB with good converters and a few outboard babies for getting the mojo.
However, it comes down to what I currently own and my empirical experiences regarding how to achieve the better mix. It took me years to come up with all-digital mixes that I liked (and this is coming from a guy who started out composing on computers well before the teens!), and when I suddenly stepped back into my analog studio down town it felt like I got so much nice sound 'for free'.
So maybe it's just that I am a lazy bugger. 
Sincerely,
Tomas Danko
"T(Z)= (n1+n2*Z^-1+n2*Z^-2)/(1+d1*z^-1+d2*z^-2)" - Mr. Dan Lavry
"Shaw baa laa raaw, sidle' yaa doot in dee splaa" . Mr Shooby Taylor
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #64450 is a reply to message #64297 ] |
Sun, 08 May 2005 13:42 |
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bobkatz
Messages: 2926
Registered: June 2004
Location: Orlando |
Platinum Member |
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| J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 07 May 2005 20:31 |
Actually, as ludicrous as it sounds, I've never run out of headroom on my console, due to the custom buss section I had made by Steve Firlotte. My master fader in PT has run out of headroom, but I don't think it was the summing. Once I backed the master fader down, the distortion stopped.
I thought the inadequacies of digital summing were what made the Dangerous 2 Buss, etc. so appealing?
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Not at all. That's the advertising hype! There is one and only one reason for the existence of these analog "summing" boxes, and that is coloration. Frankly, I don't think the Dangerous 2 Buss is colored enough to interest me. The objective losses are not exceeded by the subjective improvements. I hear great losses in separation and not that much color from the opamps and such.
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How is it that the crosstalk is a pleasant quality? I'm confused.
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This is only a theory, that the interchannel high frequency crosstalk is pleasant on the ear. I believe that the apparent increase in "separation" however, is due to the harmonic distortion.
If you really wish to evaluate what's going on in analog summing versus digital summing, start by:
a) calibrating both systems to the identical gain as measured on a meter with 0.1 dB resolution
b) make sure there are no polarity reversals. I received some test files from a client trying to compare analog versus digital summing and the analog version was reversed in polarity from the digital
c) Take a nicely recorded stereo recording in your DAW. Feed this out to a D/A converter and then back into an A/D converter and back into your digital system. Put the the two files side by side synchronized. Play them and switch between them. Which one sounds better? Which one sounds more like the "original instrument(s)"? Do you hear more separation one way than the other? Remember... every analog mix depends on the sound quality and integrity of that D/A/D routing. I've never heard one that didn't take the sound downhill a tiny bit.
And so on... now add the other variables and prove to yourself whether the "cure" is better than the "disease". Lynn Fuston's "DAW-SUM" CD is another helpful data point for everyone trying so suss this all out. Not ALL analog consoles sound better than the digital mix. And "better" is truly in the ear of the behearer.
BK
There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #64473 is a reply to message #64450 ] |
Sun, 08 May 2005 15:10 |
Deep White
Messages: 91
Registered: May 2005
Location: Taipei, Taiwan |
Member |
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| bobkatz wrote on Mon, 09 May 2005 02:42 |
There is one and only one reason for the existence of these analog "summing" boxes, and that is coloration.
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If that's true, I'd be a bit disappointed.
In the "Digital v.s. Analog Summing" thread I've mentioned a test I did this afternoon. My conclusion so far:
Totally mixing ITB is the worst. (In my case.)
Sending the mix to Manley Vari-MU (to and back through Apogee Trak2) improves the sound a lot.
Sending the mix to Manley 16x2 then to Vari-MU improves the sound a little bit more. (Due to the coloration of 16x2 maybe.)
Yet spliting the mix to 4 submixes, sending them seperately to 16x2 and summing them up there doesn't make any difference from summing them ITB and then sending the two-track out to 16x2.
I'll do more tests on this D v.s. A Summing issue later. For now it seems that what the mix benefit from the 16x2 is only coloration, not better summing.
Arys Chien
Song Writer & Producer
Deep White Studio
Taipei, Taiwan
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #64478 is a reply to message #64287 ] |
Sun, 08 May 2005 15:54 |
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gwailoh
Messages: 141
Registered: April 2005
Location: Santa Cruz, CA |
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| bobkatz wrote on Sat, 07 May 2005 16:42 |
Any way you measure it, digital summing is as close to perfect as you can get. The reasons you may prefer the analog mixer include distortion, noise, crosstalk, selective high frequency versus low frequency crosstalk, high frequency rolloff at 20 kHz, you name it.
All the "reputable" DAWs have tons of summing headroom (more than your analog board, to be exact!), zero crosstalk (which may be the reason why some people dislike it), zero leakage between channels, flat frequency response (which may be another reason why people dislike it), and it's not subject to the nonlinearities of converters. Add that up and.... well, that's what you get.
BK
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One detail though of the subjective experiences which some proponents of analog summing report is narrowing or diminution of the digitally summed stereo image compared to analog summing. If people's ears are not deceiving them, it seems more likely that the explanation for this particular difference would lie in defects in the DAW summing software rather than in distortion, leakage or other artifacts introduced by analog. You'd think these kinds of analog imperfections would work against stereo, not for it. To my excuse for a brain the more likely explanation would be that software imperfections in the DAW mix bus are introducting phase degradation; perhaps the most likely culprit being eq plugins with software artifacts that impact the mix bus in unanticipated ways.
(It would be helpful if analog proponents could add detail re the DAW versions and mixing setups they were using when they noticed stereo shrinking and other digital inferiorities compared with analog summing. Giving their ears the benefit of the doubt, I wonder whether the problems they report are generally true of all DAWs at all software revisions or if there are particular hardware/software combinations which are troublesome.)
Mark Phillips
I'm not old I'm vintage.
http://www.markphillips.com
http://www.myspace.com/mark_phillips
http://www.smartmonsters.com
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #64508 is a reply to message #64478 ] |
Sun, 08 May 2005 18:56 |
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bobkatz
Messages: 2926
Registered: June 2004
Location: Orlando |
Platinum Member |
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[quote title=gwailoh wrote on Sun, 08 May 2005 16:54]| bobkatz wrote on Sat, 07 May 2005 16:42 |
One detail though of the subjective experiences which some proponents of analog summing report is narrowing or diminution of the digitally summed stereo image compared to analog summing. If people's ears are not deceiving them, it seems more likely that the explanation for this particular difference would lie in defects in the DAW summing software rather than in distortion, leakage or other artifacts introduced by analog.
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Why? If I present the hypothesis that added distortion in the analog stages gives more apparent separation how can you refute that with "it seems more likely."?
Try this simple experiment (which I have performed numerous times and also carefully listened to test files which numerous clients have sent me at my request):
Take a stereo source in the DAW, send it through D/A/D path and back into the DAW. Carefullly switch back and forth between. Does the sound get wider or narrower? Honestly, it usually stays about the same or gets slightly narrower. NOW, add one of your favorite pairs of analog mixer modules in between the D/A/D part of the analog path. Does the sound get wider or narrower or stay the same? Sometimes it seems to get wider, depending on the analog modules used and how hard they are driven! How can increased apparent image width be caused by anything but DISTORTION since you just ADDED something to the previous chain.
If WIDTH ~~~ CROSSTALK, then objectively crosstalk can only get worse as you add additional pieces of analog gear in a chain. if WIDTH ~~~ DISTORTION, then subjectively width can get wider as you add pieces of gear in a chain.
Remember: Process of elimination of variables, take it slowly, match your levels and then take a deep breath. Why do we like analog summing? (For those who do).... Answer: Additional pleasant coloration or distortion.
BK
There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #64532 is a reply to message #64508 ] |
Sun, 08 May 2005 21:18 |
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gwailoh
Messages: 141
Registered: April 2005
Location: Santa Cruz, CA |
Active Member |
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[quote title=bobkatz wrote on Sun, 08 May 2005 16:56]| gwailoh wrote on Sun, 08 May 2005 16:54 |
How can increased apparent image width be caused by anything but DISTORTION since you just ADDED something to the previous chain.
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Thanks Bob.
Please understand that I'm not advocating the analog summing point of view. I have no point of view, yet, except that if possible I'd like to encourage the analog advocates to be more specific about which DAWs, software versions and mix topologies (bounce to disk, return via input, external master, etc.) they were using when they had their negative experiences.
It seems to me though that if analog summed stereo images were consistently superior, the logic could be the reverse of what you suggest. E.g, it's not that analog summing is adding something, but that digital summing contains digital errors which analog summing eliminates. I'm not saying that I believe this to be true, but it does seem to be a logical possibility, and I think it's consistent with the anectodes which someone posted in another similar thread re how removing plugins from the ITB mix improved the results.
Again, it would be helpful if the proponents of analog summing who are passionate in their criticism of their digital summing experiences would go into more detail re the digital setups they were using, and also as you point out whether their experiences comparing digital to analog summing have consistently shown the same results. If results were consistent, and especially if they tended to be with particular DAWs or software versions, I think I'd personally find their point of view more convincing.
Mark Phillips
I'm not old I'm vintage.
http://www.markphillips.com
http://www.myspace.com/mark_phillips
http://www.smartmonsters.com
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #64556 is a reply to message #64506 ] |
Mon, 09 May 2005 00:22 |
Deep White
Messages: 91
Registered: May 2005
Location: Taipei, Taiwan |
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| bobkatz wrote on Mon, 09 May 2005 07:49 |
Why be disappointed? Your tests appear to be fairly scientific in the sense that they eliminate extra variables, and so by process of elimination it seems to indicate that we like the analog summing for what it adds, not for what it "fixes".
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I'm disappointed, because the reasons why I bought the Manley 16x2 mic mixer are, (1) to improve the monitoring quality (I can hear better with my 1030A now) and (2) to do analog summing with it instead of digital summing within Nuendo, hoping to get a wider, deeper and "more expensive" sound, among which I only got the last one.
And I used my budget for the Lavry 2ch AD + 8ch DA to buy the 16x2....
I'm not regretting though. The 16x2 is a good gear. Simply going through it improves the sound without audible degretion. And I can always buy the Lavry later when I got paid from other projects.
One of my friend suggested that I drive the sound harder in 16x2. I'll try that later.
p.s.: When mixing ITB with Nuendo, I never drive it near 0dB, since I can always drive it with Vari-MU's input gain. I don't know if this is the key that save me from bad digital summing mixes.
Arys Chien
Song Writer & Producer
Deep White Studio
Taipei, Taiwan
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #64559 is a reply to message #60868 ] |
Mon, 09 May 2005 00:38 |
maxim
Messages: 5046
Registered: February 2005 |
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every process, whether electrical or mathematical, will "degrade" the sound along the way
and there is no "good and evil", despite the fundamentalists' assurances
it either fits or it doesn't
i don't know much about science, but could the crosstalk be creating a psychoacoustic illusion of separation by introducing a faint phantom image in the other channel, thus sounding more "realistical" for objects panned hard right and left
bob k wrote:
"Not ALL analog consoles sound better than the digital mix."
and no two digital mixes sound the same
" And "better" is truly in the ear of the behearer. "
hear, hear..and hearer
btw, my only experience of this 'mix-shrinking' phenomenon happened when i heard realtime btd in ptle, acw just monitoring the mix
i couldn't understand why it happened, but it scared me off protools
in dp, you don't get to hear the bouncedown in action, and it takes a little longer to computate (i always trust offline computing more than realtime), and the mix sounds the same (albeit, after a few minutes)so i took it as a sign to stick with dp
but i wonder if one could do a double-blind/null test comparing the monitor mix and a bounced mix, using a fairly neutral capture medium?
would it work to just take the outs and plug them into two channels (that sounds like it would introduce an extra a/d stage, which can't be "good")?
what if that were done itb, within the application?
would it still undergo the same operational calculations as the btd file, only this time, in real time?
hell, my head hurts
cheers,
max
sydney, oz
http://www.asylumdreams.com
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| Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk? [message #64593 is a reply to message #64556 ] |
Mon, 09 May 2005 07:18 |
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bobkatz
Messages: 2926
Registered: June 2004
Location: Orlando |
Platinum Member |
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| Deep White wrote on Mon, 09 May 2005 01:22 |
p.s.: When mixing ITB with Nuendo, I never drive it near 0dB, since I can always drive it with Vari-MU's input gain. I don't know if this is the key that save me from bad digital summing mixes.
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Actually, the key to how to avoid "bad" digital summing mixes is to LEARN what it is that the analog stuff did automatically and apply that to your digital mix. Learn about the Haas effect. Learn how delays, crossed delays, early reflections, and phase manipulation, even the addition of noise and distortion, can be used to create a digital mix that is as dimensional (or MORE) than any analog mix you used to make.
BK
There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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