| That f*****g loudness button [message #12305] |
Thu, 15 July 2004 08:13  |
 Oldfart
Messages: 397
Registered: May 2004
Location: Canada |
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Hello everyone,
Joe Neophyte here again with his silly question of the month:
Do you master for things to sound great with or without that f*****g loudness button on ?
I, of course work for things to sound great without it, BUT it almost always seem to be a bit over the top with the "loudness button" on. And of course, if I compensate for that f*****g button, the mix sounds too thin without it.
I also usually take into account the type of music when making that decision, but what happens when it`s somewhat of a x-over type ? (for example, a young poppish act doing a Christmas album)
So, what do you pros do about this issue?
As usual , thank you in advance for your replies,<
Oldfart
PS If it was up to me , they`d make that f*****g button illegal. I understand the convenience for those too lame to figure out how to compensate for personal preferences, but now, most are too lazy or dumb to bother switching "IT" on or off.
Denis Paquette
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| Re: That f*****g loudness button [message #12312 is a reply to message #12305 ] |
Thu, 15 July 2004 09:16  |
Level
Messages: 1811
Registered: May 2004
Location: Mastering, as it should b... |
Platinum Member |
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Absolutely not. My system has a very 'level' powerband response and I usually master loud enough that equal loudness compensation needs not enter into the equation. If someone is using these frequency extreme tilts on their line amplifiers prior to power amplification, the dynamic consistency is also getting disrupted. It would certainly result in rolled off bass response and muffled treble response. If a mastering engineer needs to rely on loudness compensation curves to do their job...I better set of mastering monitors and room acoustic treatments are of order.
On the other hand, I have been known to take my work to a cheap system and use the loudness compensation at very low level listening to see how the cheap system copes.
My car audio system is very anemic on the bottom end for low level listening and the bass control adds way too much upper bottom so with that, I will use the loudness button and subtract below flat on the head unit to help an otherwise inadequate car audio system. I need to take time and work on the loudspeaker balancing in the vehicle. Loudness compensation is helpful only if the average listening level is around 60dB and from experience and common sense, this is not the level to master at.
http://balancedmastering.com
"Listen and Learn"
---Since 1975---
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| Re: That f*****g loudness button [message #71967 is a reply to message #12305 ] |
Tue, 14 June 2005 15:12 |
Oldfart
Messages: 397
Registered: May 2004
Location: Canada |
Active Member |
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Well it's been well over a year since we've last visited this subject, but it's still my biggest pain in the butt.
To set the proper setting, let me reitarate the fact that I've only been mastering for approx. 2 yrs now. Sure my room is tiny (12.5 x 10.5 x 7.5)) but's it's been trapped to hell (150 sq ft of custom designed resonators) with tons of analyses done prior and following many , many tweaks. My rig is a pair of BM6A's mated with a BX30A. That combination of room and rig as been raved about by anyone who as heard it. Nearly everyone who hears its, comments on how they've never heard such detail and resolution in their lives (and yes many have heard ....dare I say, 802's and better)
Most of the time I have very happy clients, BUT once in a while I get the ...... "it's great everywhere ..... except" ....... where people use THE button. Cars with loudness and my work just don't seem to cooperate.
The sick thing is that when it finnaly sounds good in their cars, it sounds thin everywhere else !!!!
sigh .....
This is what's killing me . IF the complaints were common and regular, then I know I have to do a major change but its simply isn't the case.
I know I'm going to get all you pros shitting all ove my rig and room, but I have no way out of that situation for now. So I'd appreciate some postive help here.
As usual, thank you in advance for any help I can get,
Oldfart
Denis Paquette
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| Re: That f*****g loudness button [message #71971 is a reply to message #12305 ] |
Tue, 14 June 2005 15:31 |
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Jerry Tubb
Messages: 2029
Registered: March 2005
Location: Austin, Texas |
Platinum Member |
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| Oldfart wrote on Thu, 15 July 2004 08:13 |
Do you master for things to sound great with or without that f*****g loudness button on ?
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Definitely do not master for the Loudness button !
Master for what sounds good in the Mastering Studio, ... assuming you have a good listening room. Getting the lows right is the hardest part. That's why people pay the mastering guys the big bucks... because their sound translates well into the real world.
If you've got an alternate set of speakers, like near-fields, that's a good check too.
Some guys have a decent consumer system, that they know well, and check things on that.
If you start listening to many different car and home stereo systems, you'll realize that they're all different. There are so many variables and different types of default EQ settings and Hyped "Marketing EQs" , it'll just drive you insane.
of course IMVHO...
Terra Nova Mastering
for a partial list of credits check allmusic.com
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| Re: That f*****g loudness button [message #72016 is a reply to message #72014 ] |
Tue, 14 June 2005 20:33 |
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Bob Boyd
Messages: 1078
Registered: December 2004
Location: Houston |
Platinum Member |
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I don't master for the Loudness button any more than I master for Ford's COMP button.
I actually had a engineer friend of mine say that he likes to put his mixes in his car and press that button in his Explorer so he'll get an idea of what mastering might sound like.
Yikes.
Bob Boyd
ambientdigital, Houston
http://ambientdigital.com
http://myspace.com/ambientdigital
I'm not superstitious... but I am a little stitious.
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| Re: That f*****g loudness button [message #72043 is a reply to message #12305 ] |
Tue, 14 June 2005 23:11 |
Level
Messages: 1811
Registered: May 2004
Location: Mastering, as it should b... |
Platinum Member |
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My best 3 way monitoring system (besides my main) that is "off site" had crossovers at 90Hz and 900Hz.
It is difficult to find a tweeter that can deal with 900hZ to 20K and have very wide dispersion up high and deal with the sonic impact of the wattage requirements at 1Khz but they do exsist. Can happen without using steep "ringy" slopes as well.
First order anyone?? Well for the bottom of the tweeter, yes. The wave guide insured a rising impedance curve below crossover region and the tweeter was found to deal with as low as 300Hz at 40 watts without sounding to the ear like crap..although distortion products would be quite high there.
T line from 16hz to 90, T line from 90 to 900 (mid) and circular wave guilded dome from 900 up.
As I stated before, (I said absolutley not).. mastering for an equal loudness contour is hazardous at best and rediculous at least.
http://balancedmastering.com
"Listen and Learn"
---Since 1975---
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| Re: That f*****g loudness button [message #72101 is a reply to message #12305 ] |
Wed, 15 June 2005 04:36 |
Oldfart
Messages: 397
Registered: May 2004
Location: Canada |
Active Member |
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The BX30A as an interesting way of crossing over things. The BM6As are getting 95HZ and above, while the BX as a choice of 80, 95 or 120HZ. We tried everything, but what works best is their recommendation of 80HZ. It as produced the best result (meaning flattest response).
Phase (which is completly variable with the BX) , was set with the help of "Smart".
Oldfart
Denis Paquette
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| Re: That f*****g loudness button [message #72107 is a reply to message #72099 ] |
Wed, 15 June 2005 05:36 |
Level
Messages: 1811
Registered: May 2004
Location: Mastering, as it should b... |
Platinum Member |
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| bblackwood wrote on Wed, 15 June 2005 04:07 |
| Level wrote on Tue, 14 June 2005 23:11 |
It is difficult to find a tweeter that can deal with 900hZ to 20K and have very wide dispersion up high and deal with the sonic impact of the wattage requirements at 1Khz but they do exsist. Can happen without using steep "ringy" slopes as well.
First order anyone?? Well for the bottom of the tweeter, yes. The wave guide insured a rising impedance curve below crossover region and the tweeter was found to deal with as low as 300Hz at 40 watts without sounding to the ear like crap..although distortion products would be quite high there.
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Which tweeter was this, Bill? I'd be interested in seeing the specs of a tweeter that had response to 20kHz while having a resonance well below 100Hz (even then it would only be 18dB down @ 112Hz from the crossover point of 900Hz with a first order slope)...
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I said originally SEAS..(edited)
Opps, edit, I should have said "Scan Speak" Revelator D2905/9900
Same topography. Different specs.
Loaded with a wave guide, no worries.
Brad, I said 900hz to the tweeter, read and comprehend.
http://balancedmastering.com
"Listen and Learn"
---Since 1975---
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| Re: That f*****g loudness button [message #72109 is a reply to message #72101 ] |
Wed, 15 June 2005 05:41 |
lowland
Messages: 347
Registered: April 2004
Location: Essex, UK |
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FWIW my PMC AML1 active two-ways cross over at 1.4kHz, 24dB/octave. The tweeter is a big 34mm unit more usually found in their larger speakers, chosen for this design because of the low frequency handling and the way it dovetails with the flat carbon fibre/Nomex LF driver running out of high frequency steam.
I don't know much about crossover slopes but 24dB/oct sounds steep to me in audio processing terms, so I don't imagine the tweeter is dealing with anything very serious below 1.4k. That must be about an octave below where one might normally expect the crossover point to be, however.
Nigel Palmer
Lowland Masters
Essex, UK
www.lowlandmasters.com
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| Re: That f*****g loudness button [message #72126 is a reply to message #12305 ] |
Wed, 15 June 2005 07:01 |
Level
Messages: 1811
Registered: May 2004
Location: Mastering, as it should b... |
Platinum Member |
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Do some research on how a conical waveguide affects the impedance curve and then we can talk about the current draw at various x over frequencies with that particular acoustic load. Remember, the slope is the acoustic crossover + the electrical circuit which gives you the total slope and is curve which is resultant as the total acoustic slope.
Perhaps B. Smith could chime in and explain how he is able to do a 900Hz crossover at very high power with the tweeter in question and not have them turn to dust on multi hundred watt transients.
My Design used a waveguide plus two t-lines for a uniform 16 to 20K and the crossovers were at 90 and 900. 3rd order at 90, 1st order at 900.
Bob uses a L/R network (Linkwitz-Riley) considering both the acoustic and the electrical to finalize his slopes. He claims multihundred watt capability at 900Hz..I claim only 40 watts with mine. I do not want to jeopardize a 200 dollar tweeter at first order with that kind of power so I figure, actually about a 20 watt limit at that band pass.
Their is a lot to understand, debate and disprove in loudspeaker design Brad, the proof is in the actual hands on use through building and using. This is what matters to me the most.
Remember, this is an alternative set-up and not my main we are speaking of here and it translates fine and can do any frequency from 16Hz to 20K and provide 100dB of SPL continuous. More than I ever really use in real life.
Rule of thumb has been with tweeters that the minimum x over fq shall be 2X the resonance..but THEN, we have the load of the waveguide to contend with and this really changes every parameter of the motor in ways you may not expect.
If you really believe I have no experience in loudspeaker design, just keep on guessing. This is neither derogatory or mean spirited.
When I decide to introduce and market my design as a reference system, I am certain you will be on of the first to know. I will even be happy to drop them off for an extended trial against the BBC curved Bowers and Wilkens for an evaluation. It is way down the road though but I will have them on the market before the end of the decade for those who really want to help me dial them in. At this point, the NS1000M's are damned hard to compete with. They are fabulous in every respect for me and my work.
I do have quite a waiting list for the system when done. It may become unmarketable due to expense though. Time will tell.
http://balancedmastering.com
"Listen and Learn"
---Since 1975---
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