Home » R/E/P » Whatever Works » suggestions for a drum recording.
| suggestions for a drum recording. [message #222845] |
Sun, 18 February 2007 20:27  |
 thedommer
Messages: 256
Registered: September 2006
Location: Canada |
Active Member |
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Hey guys.
I was just wondering if you could give me some suggestions for a drum recording Im going to be doing soon. Ive never done a full kit as most of the time I deal with BFD whenever some form of drums is needed as most projects I deal with arent that big. So this is a bit new and scary. Obviously im going to have to rent some stuff to get this recorded right. Id like to use as much as possible of what I have though so any thoughts as to what you would do with this would be great!
At my disposal I have:
1x royer 121
2x AudioTechnica 4050
2x AudioTechnica 4041
bunch of 57s.
1x Chandler Germanium
2x Great River MP-2NV
1x RME Quad Mic
Obviously the whatever works mentality is how im going into this. I have a fairly sparse collection here so its going to be a bit tough. I know that the room and the kit is the most important part and will have a decent room and pretty good kit to start with.
I was thinking of renting another 121 and using those as overheads or sticking with the 4050s as OH and using the royer as some form or room mic.
I hate the sound of the 4041s and havent found a good use for them yet... They have a very harsh high end. But its possible some of you have found a decent use for them. Although I havent tried them through the greatriver so I dont know if that might help them a bit. Ive only ever used them throught the RME.
possibly a RE20 on kick with a PZM.
421s and 57s for everything else.
Ill probably end up buying a few of these mics as its obvious some of these are essential to an adequate mic collection (RE20 or maybe Heil)
Not sure how to describe the band. violin, drum kit, some hand drums, bass, guitar. kinda rock but not really distorted. Not a super heavy band so im looking for a bit more warmth with the drums and I dont think they will be hard panned giant left and right.
Im not asking you to spell out exactly how I need to do this. just ideas I might try out. things you would think of trying out. I want to go in there with lots of ideas and a very acceptable selection of mics. It wont be stressful and we wont have a time limit so this gives me a great opportunity to get to know my mics a bit more and learn.
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| Re: suggestions for a drum recording. [message #222856 is a reply to message #222845 ] |
Sun, 18 February 2007 21:26  |
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I would suggest keeping it simple.
Firstly, hire as little as possible. The reason I say this is because if they come back & want you to record additional tracks sounding the same you'll have to hire the gear all over again. It's best to learn to use what you have as much as possible.
I too have found little use for an AT4041. No use, actually. Maybe a back up if something dies on the day.
I have had success recording drum kits with a 421 on bass drum (you could use an RE20, D12 or D112), a single 121 overhead & a LDC on snare (not too close). I'm not sure what the AT4050's are like, but you guess could try them on snare. 57's have been known to work on snare, but for the set up I've just described I have found a LDC suits better. You could, of course, get a second 121 & have stereo overhead, but from what you seem to be saying it's not that necessary.
Cheers,
G.
sleep is not an option
jwhynot: "There's a difference between thinking or acting dogmatically and drawing from experience."
Glenn Santry
http://www.myspace.com/glennsantry
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| Re: suggestions for a drum recording. [message #222882 is a reply to message #222845 ] |
Sun, 18 February 2007 22:51 |
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wwittman
Messages: 7491
Registered: May 2004
Location: New York |
Platinum Member |
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there's no simple answer and really I DO feel I have to say that recording a drum KIT is really in no way realted to using pre-existing individual drum samples.
obviously you already know that drum recording ranges from using 1 mic to 2 mics to 3 mics to 4 mics to 12 mics to 35 mics all 'successfully" if the person doing it knows what he's doing; and depending on the desired result.
so how can anyone here POSSIBLE tell you what to do?
If I said just put the royer in a good spot and that's IT, would you be happy?
I mean I suspect you already have SOME idea what you want to do.
here are sojme of the few really useful things I can tell you:
Treat it like a drum kit.
not like 6, or however many, individual sounds.
Use as few mics as you CAN.
use only one type of mic pre on everything.
EQ when you have to, without hesitation. But don;t when you don't have to.
Separation between elements of the kit is almost always pointless.
Good drum sounds start with good drums, good tuning, and good drummer... next comes a good room.
only after that comes anything YOU do.
good drum sounds go with the rest of the sounds. If the drum sound either kills the bass sound or the guitar sound, or if the "good drum sound" disappears int he presence of the bass or guitars, well then it's NOT a good drum sound.
So don't get sounds in a vacuum.
Get sounds that work together. Rather than some idealised drum sound in your head.
get the most of the way YOUR drummer (and drums and room...) sounds.
again, rather than the sound in your head.
keep the levels into the DAW low. Drums have transients you can't see on the "meters"
don't compress unless and until you NEED to. Those transients are what make drums drums.
William Wittman
Producer/Engineer
(Cyndi Lauper, Joan Osborne, The Fixx, The Outfield, Hooters...)
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| Re: suggestions for a drum recording. [message #222895 is a reply to message #222882 ] |
Sun, 18 February 2007 23:42 |
iCombs
Messages: 542
Registered: March 2006
Location: Minneapollis |
Gold Member |
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William,
That might be some of the best, most concise advice on recording drums that I've ever read. Seriously. If I were to revise/reuse (which I may well do) the list, I'd do it like this...
I did excise the part about the same preamp on everything...MOSTLY because I know that isn't always an option (actually, in my world it's NEVER an option), though staying as consistant as possible with preamp does help.
Again, I do know what you mean about using as few mics as possible, but I'm also pretty sure that if you want a really dry, in-your-face sort of drum sound, 3 distant mics aren't going to cut it.
Perhaps there is a way to arrange this heierarchically, in terms of importance...the part about making the drums sound the way they actually sound and not like some idealized drums you hear in your head (for example) should probably appear somewhere near the top.
| wwittman wrote on Sun, 18 February 2007 22:51 |
here are sojme of the few really useful things I can tell you:
Treat it like a drum kit.
not like 6, or however many, individual sounds.
Use as few mics as you CAN. Or as many as you NEED.
EQ when you have to, without hesitation. But don;t when you don't have to.
Separation between elements of the kit is almost always pointless.
Good drum sounds start with good drums, good tuning, and good drummer... next comes a good room.
only after that comes anything YOU do.
good drum sounds go with the rest of the sounds. If the drum sound either kills the bass sound or the guitar sound, or if the "good drum sound" disappears in the presence of the bass or guitars, well then it's NOT a good drum sound.
So don't get sounds in a vacuum.
Get sounds that work together. Rather than some idealised drum sound in your head.
get the most of the way YOUR drummer (and drums and room...) sounds.
again, rather than the sound in your head.
keep the levels into the DAW low. Drums have transients you can't see on the "meters"
don't compress unless and until you NEED to. Those transients are what make drums drums.
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Ian Combs
Producer/Engineer
Lightspeed Group, Inc.
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"Mista apareeatah... can I have maar beass at all frequencies?"
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| Re: suggestions for a drum recording. [message #222898 is a reply to message #222845 ] |
Sun, 18 February 2007 23:50 |
DigitMus
Messages: 90
Registered: April 2004 |
Member |
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Without getting too specific, if you're not experienced recording a drumkit, then "less is more" should be your mantra. Use as few mics as you can get away with. Start with a pair (whether this is an XY, AB, ORTF pair OH, or some variation of the "Glen Johns" technique with one 2' above the snare and another pointing across the floor tom, or something else entirely doesn't matter, just get a good "picture" of the kit as it sounds in the room). After that, add ONLY what you need to support the song you're recording, like a kick or FOK mic, snare, or what have you. add one mic, then listen and balance with your 2 mic "picture". When you reach the point of diminishing returns (usually about the 4th or 5th mic) remove the last mic you added, then play with the polarity, and fine tune the position of the mics you already have up. - You'll probably find it works just fine.
There are, of course, the usual caveats with this - the drummer must be good and consistant enough (& and have the patience for the process), and the kit & room have to be up to snuff, and you have to have the EARS to know when you've got "it".
Did I scare you yet? 
Scott
[EDIT] Dang, I did my usual post-gig "post without reading the replies" adrenalin rush typing, and completely missed William's excellent reply. Just ignore me and listen to him - he's got a much better track record.
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| Re: suggestions for a drum recording. [message #222913 is a reply to message #222909 ] |
Mon, 19 February 2007 00:24 |
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Podgorny
Messages: 1399
Registered: April 2004
Location: Passed out in the airlock |
Platinum Member |
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In response to the topic,
Don't overthink it.
4050s on OH.
4041 on Hat.
And then the old standby choices for close mics.
And if you want to use the Royer, use it on mono room, about four feet in front of the kit, a couple of feet off the floor.
A basic setup like that will cover most styles (depending upon the kit and drummer). If you're familiar with the material and what to go elsewhere sonically, that's fine. But when I'm unsure, I go with what I KNOW will work, and change my strategy as I go along.
"A.) Good mixes are usually pretty durable and art is pretty subjective.
B.) Artists are often much more concerned with the "ornaments" than the "tree" when initially presented with a mix whose basic taper and focus exceeds their best expectations.
C.) "Ornaments" are largely, if not wholly, a function of MIX FASHION which is WAY more likely be be the stuff which ends up being things EVERYBODY is kinda embarrassed about, or at least just hears with a chuckle years after the record is done and gone."
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| Re: suggestions for a drum recording. [message #223098 is a reply to message #222895 ] |
Mon, 19 February 2007 18:22 |
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wwittman
Messages: 7491
Registered: May 2004
Location: New York |
Platinum Member |
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| iCombs wrote on Mon, 19 February 2007 00:42 |
I did excise the part about the same preamp on everything...MOSTLY because I know that isn't always an option (actually, in my world it's NEVER an option), though staying as consistant as possible with preamp does help.
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well, one can only do what's possible.
But when even the modest studio decides to buy mic pres, they can choose to buy 4 APIs, for example, and NOT 1 API, 1 Neve, 1 this, and one that...
but, sure, you always have to deal with what's on hand.
| Quote: |
Again, I do know what you mean about using as few mics as possible, but I'm also pretty sure that if you want a really dry, in-your-face sort of drum sound, 3 distant mics aren't going to cut it.
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yes, but the key word there is DISTANT.
I often use one mic over the hangers panned right, one pointed at the side of the floor toms panned left, and a snare and bass drum mic panned centre.
Although the L,R mics are anywhere from 12-30" from the drums depending on the circs, you'd be surprised that the drums sound quite CLOSE.
Not necessarily any more "distant" than truly close individual tom mics, which quite often people then add room mics and reverb to ANYWAY.
I don't really consider a mic 2 feet over the hanger toms to be "distant".
when you stand 2 feet fomr the drums, they DON'T sound "far away".
and often they sound fuller and have more impact than if you stick your ear 2" from the drum.
William Wittman
Producer/Engineer
(Cyndi Lauper, Joan Osborne, The Fixx, The Outfield, Hooters...)
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| Re: suggestions for a drum recording. [message #223150 is a reply to message #222845 ] |
Mon, 19 February 2007 22:17 |
i dig music
Messages: 558
Registered: April 2004 |
Gold Member |
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stick the royer 3 feet from the kik and listen to the whole kit to see what is missing.
my guess is you will be looking for more of the left side {hat and snare}. stick an AT 40whatever over the snare and hat about a foot or two up. listen again. next you will might find yourself missing the right side {ride and floor}. stick another AT40whatever over the floor about 8 inches but turn it so the center faces the floor and the ride. listen again and balance the three mics. if you feel you need more of a particular drum, grab a 57 and fill in.
disclaimer......depending on the player, kit and room it will either sound great or like crap. while other mic choices can help greatly, if you don't have the first 3 things right forget it.
but don't be discouraged. sometimes a crap drum sound is just what the track needed. meaning, reserve you judgement on how it sounds within the track. i could almost guarantee you that even the best drum sounds are subject to change during the course of any production, usually, to fit the vibe of the overall recording. and what anything should really sound like is hard to determine until it is time to mix. you could easily think you have the perfect drum sound, but it will only take the smallest twist a in production to will create a new direction, feel or tone. hell, i' ve replaced incredible drummers with a shitty one to get the right feel.
once again, the name of the forum, "Whatever Works".
R. Steele
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| Re: suggestions for a drum recording. [message #223153 is a reply to message #223098 ] |
Mon, 19 February 2007 23:11 |
iCombs
Messages: 542
Registered: March 2006
Location: Minneapollis |
Gold Member |
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| wwittman wrote on Mon, 19 February 2007 18:22 |
| iCombs wrote on Mon, 19 February 2007 00:42 |
I did excise the part about the same preamp on everything...MOSTLY because I know that isn't always an option (actually, in my world it's NEVER an option), though staying as consistant as possible with preamp does help.
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well, one can only do what's possible.
But when even the modest studio decides to buy mic pres, they can choose to buy 4 APIs, for example, and NOT 1 API, 1 Neve, 1 this, and one that...
but, sure, you always have to deal with what's on hand.
| Quote: |
Again, I do know what you mean about using as few mics as possible, but I'm also pretty sure that if you want a really dry, in-your-face sort of drum sound, 3 distant mics aren't going to cut it.
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yes, but the key word there is DISTANT.
I often use one mic over the hangers panned right, one pointed at the side of the floor toms panned left, and a snare and bass drum mic panned centre.
Although the L,R mics are anywhere from 12-30" from the drums depending on the circs, you'd be surprised that the drums sound quite CLOSE.
Not necessarily any more "distant" than truly close individual tom mics, which quite often people then add room mics and reverb to ANYWAY.
I don't really consider a mic 2 feet over the hanger toms to be "distant".
when you stand 2 feet fomr the drums, they DON'T sound "far away".
and often they sound fuller and have more impact than if you stick your ear 2" from the drum.
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Fair enough. At any rate...I still think that you offer up some of the best advice I've ever seen for recording drums without going so far as prescribing. It seems like there are no two engineers who can agree what the "best" way to record drums is. Hell, I think it's damn hilarious that the "Glyn Johns" technique isn't necessarily what's used by the man who's the technique's namesake. I saw some shots the other day of Glyn engineering drums for a package of loops and samples, and he had mics top and bottom of the snare and all the toms, a couple on the kick, and a stereo pair of OH's.
Drums are ever so subjective, and prescriptions in those situations seem to be a hindrance to learning more than a help with the session.
Ian Combs
Producer/Engineer
Lightspeed Group, Inc.
----------------------
"Mista apareeatah... can I have maar beass at all frequencies?"
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