Home » R/E/P » Klaus Heyne's Mic Lab » M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner?
| M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner? [message #396347] |
Fri, 09 January 2009 01:45  |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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I have tested and retested in several set-ups a recent sample of Thiersch's new "Blue Line" (PVC) M7 Neumann capsule copy.
First, this is a wholly-Thiersch-manufactured capsule, i.e. not only does it use Thiersch's diaphragms but also his brass backplate which is patterned after the "Berlin M7", the type that has a particular pattern of concentric rings at the edge of the backplate, and which features other peculiarities.
This effort is a whole step closer to the 'real thing' than his previous attempts, and he is certainly closer than his competitors in achieving the goal to emulate the Neumann M7. Here we have a balanced frequency response in general, with just a tiny bit too little high frequency sheen, reasonably good side-to-side performance, and a pleasant timbre, void of shrillness, lisp, sibilance, or dried up bass.
Considering the trend, I am optimistic that he may succeed in the one area this capsule still lacks- the magic of an M7 to get behind the note, of having a level of resolution and speed of response, from the very high frequencies through the lower mids, that allows the voice or the music come to you, without too much listening effort. A "pearling off" effect, if you will, where the apparatus- the capsule- helps you along.
None too scientific, and probably an annoying description for the pocket protector types among acoustic engineers; but such is the quest for emotional satisfaction through the ear- a decent scientific explanation for the link between hearing, absorbing and the mechanics of getting there is still beyond our reach.
I have some ideas how to maybe overcome what may still be missing in Thiersch's M7 effort. To that end, I have started discussions with him; so let's toast to a successful M7 year!
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: My New Year's Wish: A Thiersch M7 Breakthrough [message #396446 is a reply to message #396347 ] |
Fri, 09 January 2009 14:52  |
 Stephen Andrew Bright
Messages: 88
Registered: July 2008
Location: Austin, TX |
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Based on my fondness for the sound of the M7 in my Wunder CM7 GT, I recently ordered Mr. Thiersch's M8 conversion, which is where he takes a stock M8 lollipop capsule and reskins it on both sides and makes it a switchable Cardioid / Fig. 8.
Used M8s can be found at about 1/2 the price of a used M7, and the converted M8 in cardioid sounds like his M7, according to Thiersch.
For me it seemed like an inexpensive way to get the M7 sound, which can then be used on a wide variety of mic bodies.
Stephen
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Stephen Andrew Bright
www.m221b.com
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| Re: My New Year's Wish: A Thiersch M7 Breakthrough [message #396458 is a reply to message #396347 ] |
Fri, 09 January 2009 16:03 |
Plush
Messages: 261
Registered: April 2004
Location: Chicago |
Active Member |
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Hello Klaus,
I don't want to be rude, but I can't quite understand your description of the desired sound. Can you state it in a different way. I am wanting to know your thoughts.
How do you suggest the M7 should sound?
Hudson Fair
Atelier HudSonic, Chicago
http://www.myspace.com/hudsonek
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| Re: My New Year's Wish: A Thiersch M7 Breakthrough [message #396497 is a reply to message #396347 ] |
Fri, 09 January 2009 18:33 |
Stephen Andrew Bright
Messages: 88
Registered: July 2008
Location: Austin, TX |
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Hi JJ:
You are right -- he uses his own transducer:
http://www.thiersch-mic.de/en/estm_produkte_M8.html
So it is his M7 transducer in an M8 lollipop housing, now switchable from Cardioid / Fig. 8, or Cardioid / Omni.
Stephen
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Stephen Andrew Bright
www.m221b.com
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| Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner? [message #398290 is a reply to message #396347 ] |
Sun, 18 January 2009 11:36 |
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I have a Theirsch M7 here now, comparing directly to a good Berlin M7.
Also have a very good MTG M7 from 1991, but it is mounted in a totally different head, and I probably won't have time to remount for apples to apples comparisons there.
The only conclusion I feel comfortable giving publicly so far is that both the Theirsch and the Berlin totally smoke the (very old) K47 from my U48 for that elusive "sexiness."
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| Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner? [message #398658 is a reply to message #398290 ] |
Tue, 20 January 2009 00:01 |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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Terry,
You know that comparing K47 to M7 is an iffy proposition (and you said so in your post.)
To answer the original question, I will give my current ranking of both PVC and Mylar M7 models, based on frequent tests and submissions by both Gefell and Thiersch:
A. PVC-State in 2009
1. Neumann Berlin and Neumann/Gefell, historic stock (when they still work)
2. Microtech Gefell, the ones made until 4-5 years ago
3. Thiersch, current
4. Thiersch, made ca. 1993/4
5. Microtech Gefell, current
B. Mylar/Polyester-State in 2009
1. Microtech Gefell, until 4-5 years ago
2. Tie: Microtech Gefell, current and Thiersch, current
Still my (slightly) favorite M7 capsule, which I use for all of my comparison tests, is a Microtech Gefell M7 POLYESTER! This was a one-off, with truly mind-blowing timbre, fullness, and clarity, Sheryl Crow's 'Soak Up The Sun' was done with a short body U47 with that capsule.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner? [message #399743 is a reply to message #398658 ] |
Fri, 23 January 2009 23:57 |
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wwittman
Messages: 7487
Registered: May 2004
Location: New York |
Platinum Member |
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| Klaus Heyne wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 01:01 |
If you want the sound of a true M7, there is only one way today to get it: Buy a Gefell PVC M7 as currently still manufactured (though with some low-end loss)...
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so, Klaus, I take it you no longer feel this is true?
I have to say, after evangelising for them for so many years, I recently had some new UMT70s up and was very dissappointed with them.
I have to GUESS this is due to the new run of M7's
first they took out the transformers for no reason, and now this...
William Wittman
Producer/Engineer
(Cyndi Lauper, Joan Osborne, The Fixx, The Outfield, Hooters...)
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| Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner? [message #399808 is a reply to message #399743 ] |
Sat, 24 January 2009 12:26 |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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Yes, I am afraid this old statement of mine is no longer true.
The current Gefell M7 PVC capsules are not up to the excellent standard we used to get from the company. They are uniformly bass-shy, to the point of harshness, and any hint of their historic sex appeal and emotional attractiveness that mainly came from the robust lower mids (let alone frequency balance or side-to-side consistency) is gone.
Yet, I am always optimistic that, as long customers like you will ring their alarm bells, formerly glorious capsule manufacturers get on their feet again, make the changes the public demands, and become contenders once again.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner? [message #411651 is a reply to message #411527 ] |
Tue, 17 March 2009 00:10 |
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Klaus Heyne
Messages: 2942
Registered: April 2004 |
Platinum Member |
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Sean,
Your timely inquiry saved me from starting a new thread. Thanks!
I am in the middle of working with Thiersch in identifying the characteristics which make a copy capsule different from the original- both as far as sound goes and the minute, mechanical, build-differences.
This is the fun part (for me) and the crux (for most capsule makers): How do you know when you have it right? Whose ears can you trust when you are the capsule builder? What if several of the "Golden Ears" you lent your new capsule to, in order to decide on what design to go for, contradict each other?
Measurements certainly won't help the builder- we have discussed this ad infinitum here- the minute timbral differences that separate the wannabes from the jackpot are impossible to quantify and, if that was even possible, then to qualify!
There are exceptions, but the rule applies: the capsule builder must rely on a principal person to guide him, through listening tests, in the right direction. The lack of such a relationship in the current capsule making methodology pretty much explains the lack of any break-though towards a new, exciting, musical, frequency balanced, large diaphragm capsule. Hence the same old proven designs are being copied, and not even copied all that well.
As to your concrete question: The situation is quite dynamic with Thiersch at the moment. Since he has started up production of PVC capsules again, the new generation to my ears surpasses his Mylar work; so I'd go for that.
Please also see my rating of currently produced M7 copies, earlier in this thread. I hope to be updating this list some day soon with something that deserves more than just lukewarm endorsement.
Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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| Re: M7 Breakthrough Around The Corner? [message #411684 is a reply to message #411651 ] |
Tue, 17 March 2009 06:37 |
Andy Simpson
Messages: 714
Registered: July 2004
Location: Poland |
Gold Member |
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It would seem that the question of measurement has been discussed 'ad infinitum', and I would agree that the apparently extensive discussion appears to have got nowhere, but not because all avenues have been explored.
I would say that the most critical, fundamental measurements are simply not being made.
If they were, we would not need to be having this conversation.
Andy
www.SimpsonMicrophones.com - Next Generation Microphones TLM50 VS NextGen Decca Tree WAV
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